Thoth vs. Rider Waite

Barleywine

I have created a page on my blog dedicated to documents (which can be downloaded) and websites related to the GD and the Thoth Tarot:

http://strangerealms.wordpress.com/...-dawn-tarot-decks-related-files-and-websites/

I hope it helps you understand the Thoth Tarot more and the Tarot of Vampyres as well on which is it based on.

Thanks for this! A couple of these are new to me, most I've been to before. I've always liked Tryskelion because they're brief and to-the-point. I see they have modernized their interface.
 

beginagain

Thank you everyone for your responses. There's a lot of great information here.

Waite and Crowley both had Golden Dawn roots but Crowley diverged (rather widely in some areas) into his own "magickal philosophy" of Thelema. If you haven't yet, you could read Liber T (part of the Golden Dawn "Second Order" curriculum) in conjunction with both systems to see where some of the the common ground lay. A free pdf download is available.

Thank you, Barleywine! I've downloaded it and I'll read it very soon.

Like I said in another thread; study the RWS and you know the RWS, study the Thoth and you know all GD decks. Study on one isn't wasted, as it is easily applicable to all the others. Although Crowley did seem to diverge more from the established traditions, the upshot is that by the time a student is ready to even try to understand what he did, they are in a far better position to understand how he diverged.

closrapexa, this would imply that I need to study Crowley in a fair amount of depth, going a fair way beyond the tarot. Dunno if I want to do that...

The RWS has a very distinct agenda, discussed to death in other threads, that is profoundly Christian in its presentation of ethics and morals.

I'm not over fond of Christian ethics or morals either, closrapexa. In fact, I have strong moral and philosophical objections to any form of any organised religion, including New Age and Pagan religions. What appeals to me about the tarot is that it's spirituality within a non denominational structure.

But once you actively sit down and start studying the Book of Thoth, learning the symbolism, and understanding the Qabalah and Astrology behind the deck it will literally change your life. Once you understand the symbolism and message that this deck is trying to get at you'll start having some extremely profound readings.

sworm09, is studying the entire Book of Thoth required for reading a Thoth deck? Again, the anti religious prejudice of mine is stirring. From a more practical standpoint, I have a learning disorder that inhibits my understanding of numerology, which rules out the fundamental structure of the Qabalah. I have absolutely no interest in astrology.

But I would argue that Crowley went well beyond Chrisianity to grasp a much broader encyclopaedic comprehension, bringing in sundry elements of Hindu, Buddhist, Egyptian, Hebrew, Babylonian, Celtic, Greek, Roman and Gnostic cosmology (and I bet I've missed a few ), "Yi King," astrology, geomancy, numerology, alchemy, a little science and philosophy, and a variety of pagan notions he mined from Frazer's "The Golden Bough."

Barleywine, it almost sounds like he went along and cherry picked anything that seemed interesting. Did he read with any depth on these things?

If I understand the OP correctly, the choice is not directly between Thoth and RWS, but between the Tarot of Vampyres (a Thoth based deck with the Phantasmagoria companion book) and RWS based decks.

LRichard, that's right. However, all of my other decks are based on RWS, as well as all of the decks on my wishlist. I really don't want to limit my study on just one deck like I would have to if I concentrated on the Vampyres, but frankly, I don't think I have it in me to learn more than one tarot system at a time.

I have created a page on my blog dedicated to documents (which can be downloaded) and websites related to the GD and the Thoth Tarot

Thank you WolfyJames, this is great! I'll definitely be downloading some of those very soon, while I'm still making my decision.



Thank you to everyone who responded; I'm going to take my time and read some of the Thoth materials while I make up my mind. Truth to tell I'm leaning more towards the RWS system right now, but that may change as I read more on the Thoth.
 

Uncle Fester

Disappointed

I can only say from personal experience being disappointed with Toth I did have a pack many moons ago which I lost by mistake? Any way Allways seemed to have a rider Waite deck stuck to me somehow ! But I recently found out that Crowley (I don't want to go into too much detail and you can research it yourself if you're not faint hearted) but he made his cards useing certain methods which I personally would not want roaming around my psyche

Guess what I'm trying to say is follow your gut on which cards ...some like to use only one type or deck others use bit of bothe etc up to you whatever feels right and interests you enough to stick with the journey of learning the tarot as its life long if you ask me
 

Aeon418

But I recently found out that Crowley (I don't want to go into too much detail and you can research it yourself if you're not faint hearted) but he made his cards useing certain methods which I personally would not want roaming around my psyche

Don't leave us all in suspense. Go on, spill the beans!
 

Barleywine

Barleywine, it almost sounds like he went along and cherry picked anything that seemed interesting. Did he read with any depth on these things?

How deeply he delved into any given area is anybody's guess, except where he left a written record of his explorations. For years I thought his astrological knowledge was rather thin, then I discovered "The General Principles of Astrology," a large tome which started life as two separate books under Evangeline Adam's byline that Crowley largely ghost-wrote. But a lot of his writing was mystical and visionary; unless one has a grounding in the source material he was drawing from, it's hard to tell whether he was well-versed or just dabbling. (IMO, The Vision and the Voice is at or beyond the outer fringes of scrutability - but then I'm not well-versed in Dee and Kelly's Enochian work - while Eight Lectures on Yoga seems more grounded in established principles.)

My understanding is that the Thoth tarot was his attempt to shoehorn everything he had learned in a lifetime of esoteric study into one cohesive system of symbolism. The points he made in support of the symbols chosen for the cards were convincing in many cases but - again IMO - were wanting substantiation in others. The Book of Thoth itself would presumably have to be much larger in order to cross-connect and elucidate all of his inputs.
 

Aeon418

IMO, The Vision and the Voice is at or beyond the outer fringes of scrutability - but then I'm not well-versed in Dee and Kelly's Enochian work

The Vision and the Voice is a difficult work. But getting a handle on it doesn't require much knowledge of Enochian. A basic understanding of the Enochian letter correspondences helps to shed light on how the names of the aethyrs frequently shape the symbolic content of the visions. Also a basic qabalistic structural framework makes the visions much easier to understand. The first (30th) aethyr, TEX, corresponds to Malkuth in Yetzirah. The second (29th) aethyr, RII, corresponds to Yesod in Yetzirah. Follow that pattern up the Tree until you reach the final aethyr, LIL, which corresponds to Kether in Atziluth.

If that's not enough I would suggest you consider taking a look at James Eshelman's qabalistic and astrological analysis of Liber 418 called, Visions and Voices. I can't recommend this book highly enough. It is simply excellent. :thumbsup:

http://www.amazon.com/Visions-Voice...1398177112&sr=1-2&keywords=visions+and+voices

Students of the Thoth Tarot may also be interested in this book due to the fact that much of the symbolism of the deck is drawn directly from Liber 418.
 

Zephyros

closrapexa, this would imply that I need to study Crowley in a fair amount of depth, going a fair way beyond the tarot. Dunno if I want to do that...

I think it really depends what you want. Also, don't plan ahead too far. Just start, and see how it goes.
 

Barleywine

The Vision and the Voice is a difficult work. But getting a handle on it doesn't require much knowledge of Enochian. A basic understanding of the Enochian letter correspondences helps to shed light on how the names of the aethyrs frequently shape the symbolic content of the visions. Also a basic qabalistic structural framework makes the visions much easier to understand. The first (30th) aethyr, TEX, corresponds to Malkuth in Yetzirah. The second (29th) aethyr, RII, corresponds to Yesod in Yetzirah. Follow that pattern up the Tree until you reach the final aethyr, LIL, which corresponds to Kether in Atziluth.

If that's not enough I would suggest you consider taking a look at James Eshelman's qabalistic and astrological analysis of Liber 418 called, Visions and Voices. I can't recommend this book highly enough. It is simply excellent. :thumbsup:

http://www.amazon.com/Visions-Voice...1398177112&sr=1-2&keywords=visions+and+voices

Students of the Thoth Tarot may also be interested in this book due to the fact that much of the symbolism of the deck is drawn directly from Liber 418.

Thanks for the link, I will definitely buy this one! I first read The Vision and the Voice in the late '80s when I was doing intensive study of the Hermetic Qabalah (I'm not a Hebrew linguist or scholar, so I had to be content with translations). It was the exquisite and profound language that hooked me. I especially cherish the 13th Aethyr and its lengthy narrative regarding "NEMO" (Latin for "no man" or "no one.") I can't help but think that Crowley was having some fun with the play on words throughout that text. I'm now re-reading it more for content than to wallow in the exalted prose.
 

sworm09

sworm09, is studying the entire Book of Thoth required for reading a Thoth deck? Again, the anti religious prejudice of mine is stirring. From a more practical standpoint, I have a learning disorder that inhibits my understanding of numerology, which rules out the fundamental structure of the Qabalah. I have absolutely no interest in astrology.

That's an interesting question. In my opinion, you're at least going to want to read the Book of Thoth one time. Crowley intended for the deck to be used with the information from the Book of Thoth in mind.

Now as for an anti religious prejudice.....well that doesn't apply much to the Thoth tarot. There's nothing religious about it. It's literally life and the universe depicted in 78 picture cards; Crowley just uses religious metaphors to express what can't be expressed in words.

More practically, Qabalah doesn't necessarily connect with numerology, but some basic Qabalistic knowledge would help in understanding the Thoth. If you have no interest in Astrology (you only need to know it on a very superficial level) then that also puts you back.

If these things are problems for you then I wouldn't really recommend the Thoth tarot. Despite what many people say, Crowley intended the deck to be a learning tool for Qabalah and magic. If you're interested in neither, then another deck may be better for you.