Only charlatans see the future?

When you bring psychology into it, you very much are practicing without a license. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am not a licensed therapist.

When this happens, it becomes less about the cards and more about the reader's interpretation of the client's state of mind. Which, I believe, is more of a con than predicting the future.

We read cards, we are not trained psychologists, we are not advice givers, we relay the messages we get from the cards.

And with this, it behooves us to get a feel of our sitters. Are they in need of psychiatric care? Whenever I find that a reading is going in that direction or if I feel that my sitter is in need of some serious help, I urge them to get help.

I think if one is reading others in a psychological way, they are the cons, unless they happen to have a license. And if they did, what are they using tarot for?

I do plenty of predictions and I always but a caveat about that. Energy changes, people change. We simply cannot know every little thing that has to go into making one thing happen. And I may get it wrong in the first place anyway.

What's the difference between practicing psychology and affecting someone psychologically? Because if we aren't having any kind of psychological effect and we're predicting one of an infinite possible futures, then what's really the point of any of it?

Any human interaction has the potential to affect another human psychologically.

Think bullies, emotional abuse, etc. Sometimes we are good to each other and sometimes we are not.

But the average, non-psychotic person (who is able to think for themselves and make their own decisions) shouldn't be harmed by a reading. Would you read for a mentally challenged person the same way you would read for someone you know is level headed? How about a teen as opposed to someone your own age? And these are only the things we can easily notice. Think of the issues deep down that exist in each of our sitters. Reading for others is a huge responsibility.

I definitely see where you're coming from, Marina. It's the implicaton that seems to say 'Tarot's okay if it's sanctified by science', rather than 'at last science is admitting to the wisdom of the Tarot', which is also a very valid point that doesn't seem to get much air time in the popular approach to Tarot & other occult practices. Just like mainstream psychology rarely acknowledges Astrology, while in essence they are both typologies, only Astrology is a few thousand years older

In my very first learnings about Tarot (at a course with a fey woman, whose learnings came from experience rather than from books), she said that Tarot knows no division of time and that past, present and future are all intimately related with each other and are constantly influencing each other. I've never forgotten this.

When I do readings that include a 'future' component I always explain to the querent that the future is a kind of 'projection' based on their habits and patterns and that if they choose to change these, then their future will also alter. (This is a concept that I first encountered in the LWB that accompanied a beautiful Australian deck - the Millenium Tarot [majors only]). I further explain that becoming conscious of a future trend is not sufficient to change it, because this is merely an intellectual process - if the seeker doesn't like what they see up ahead, then they need to work, with commitment, to alter their future life. In other words, they work on the present 'moments' (habits & patterns - which can often be rigid, as pointed out by zan_chan) to metamorphose their future 'moments'. The capacity for any of us to do this sort of work can be quite limited (it's the everlasting quest of the seeker, described in much esoteric and mainstream literature), thus, tarot predictions often materialise.

How long does it take a Tarot reader to establish the possible turn of future events as opposed to the number of sessions it might take a psychologist to discover this? I think that speaks for itself, although I'm certainly not saying that either is 'better' or 'superior' - as I see it, it all depends on what best connects with the needs of the seeker and what they are open to, as well as the ethics and intent of the professional involved.

cricket said:

People don't believe in prophets anymore. They don't want to believe in them. They don't want to believe that the future is predictable

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And I'd suggest that a disenchantment with prediction of the future is directly connected to ignorance of what is going on in the present - we only need to look at the media's preoccupation with the global financial and climate crisis to see proof of this. As I see it, the future is directly connected to the present, and that's what Tarot so succinctly points out, and has always pointed out, a long, long time before baby psychology hit the scene. Although I reiterate, it's what best suits the seeker, because the door can really only be opened from the inside.

Yes I agree that the two go wonderfully together and that it isn't fair to separate them based on 'scientific' rationalisations. In my experience charlatans inhabit both professions, only we're less likely to hear about the misdemeanours of those that are based in 'science' because that is where the status quo, together with millions of $$, is invested. Just my opinion.

I respect your observations and questions, Marina, and love the dialogue that your post has generated Thank you!

{(~_~)}

I don't have time to read this whole thread but I'm gonna post now and then read the rest tomorrow. Should be interesting.

Everyone has the ability to predict the future, even someone else's future, if they have perception and a little common sense. The truth of the matter though is a lot of people don't have either one. I believe the most successful card readers are exercising both of these to a high degree. Their ability to predict a person's future comes not so much from the cards but from their ability to "cold read" the person. A lot of card readers simply can't do this and most of their "predictions" never materialize.

The trend these days seems to be away from predicting the future in favor of "spiritual counseling." I think the main reason for this is simple, there's more money to be made in counseling. It's a lot easier to counsel someone and sound believable than it is to predict what their future holds based on a "cold read."

zan_chan said:

What's the difference between practicing psychology and affecting someone psychologically? Because if we aren't having any kind of psychological effect and we're predicting one of an infinite possible futures, then what's really the point of any of it?

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Short answer: a really big lawsuit.

Long answer: We all have a psychological effect on everybody who sees, hears, or feels us (either in a spiritual sense or a physical sense). What we say, what we do, what we feel like, and what kind of energy we give off has a huge effect on everything around us. It has an effect on every part of every thing we are around, including psychologically. We can't help that it happens. It's just the way things are.

Practicing psychology is different. Practicing psychology is claiming to have an expertise in a field that takes years of study (enough for the student to realise they have no idea what's going on, then get confident enough to BS their way through anyway). Practicing psychology is having enough confidence in that claim that people feel comfortable coming to you, opening up their deepest selves, and trusting you not to screw them up even more than they already are - and all of us are a little screwy in some way.

Maybe we are just predicting one of an infinite number of possibilities. However, people rarely change. When they do, it's usually not enough to have a great influence on the outcome of their future. We are creatures of habit, who are affected by the habits of those around us. We rarely change who we are around most often (at least in a drastic way) and once we reach a certain comfort level in our own habits, they just don't change much. The energies stay in the rut we put them in, and rush toward the most likely outcome - usually something very similar to what is predicted, in my personal experience. There are times when either somebody DOES change enough for that to be incorrect or an outside influence changes the energies for them, rendering the outcome of a reading incorrect. Then again, any one of us could walk outside and be hit by a meteor. It happens.

Of course, this all hinges on whether one believes that psychology is a reliable science. But, it can be seen as mostly guessing. With a lot of deductive reasoning.

Marina said:

I don't see any problem in not believing in future readings or not enjoying doing them, as Zan and kittiann said, because that's a matter of preference and practice.

I just don't understand why is it put in opposition to the psychological view of the tarot, as if one was right and the other wrong. If you try to foresee the future = bad con-man reader. If you *only* use a psychological approach to in order to explore your own self = great serious tarot reader.

It is a view that seems to be spreading. I have read about Jung and Freud and all this, but truthfully I never speak of archetypes and anima/animus when doing a reading.

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I don't speak about archetypes all that much either, even though I tend to read from that perspective. I think in some sense people have to deal with their archetypal influences on their own, and aren't that open to being told about them. I also don't think people should see a Jungian approach as canceling out the possibility of reading the future. Jung himself had premonitions of WWI, and wrote about them. He had other experiences of and interests in ESP, and he wrote about some dreams being prescient. So, for anyone to use Jung's name in an argument against reading about the future would, in my opinion, be absurd and an indication of their ignorance about Jung.

Search Google for Jung+golden scarab, read about the incident of the golden scarab, and then tell me he didn't believe one could foretell the future.

I don't typically try to read the future with tarot, though, because it typically doesn't work for me. I think in a way we can con ourselves by attempting to rely on that, though I don't think it makes someone a con artist. (I suspect the con artists who read were con artists before they ever touched a tarot deck, and they probably don't believe in it at all because otherwise they wouldn't need to con anyone.)

What I find is that sometimes the tarot offers a glimpse of the future as it WILL turn out and sometimes it doesn't - maybe because something changes along the way that changes the outcome, maybe because we can only see the future on a need-to-know basis, who knows? Really, who knows?

I find my best readings come from a standpoint of what's happening now, reading a situation, and sometimes they offer a glimpse of how it will turn out, or some hint of the direction to take. But the best use I find with it is to understand the present in greater depth and from new perspectives I hadn't considered.

Marina said:

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I want to know other people's opinion on this. Do you agree that "predicting the future" is more a charlatan thing that "reading about the inner self".? Why? Why saying "yes I predict the future" is more shameful than "I help the querent to find more about himself"?

Both things are so wonderful together, why are they being separated?

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Tarot can very very accurately predict the future, but not always. Well it can always predict that future, but sometimes the future changes from here till there which invalidates the reading. So my answer is that Tarot works brilliantly at predicting the future, but that future can change.

What that means to us as readers, in my opinion, is that we have an obligation to explain this to our querents any time they ask for a reading on the future. They need to understand that the future is not set in stone but rather is fluid and even that they can change if they wish. To just do a reading without explaining all this is misleading, to me. As you are saying you can give them an accurate answer, when in reality...reality can change in regards to the future.

But if you explain it to the querent and they want you to go ahead, some truly great things can result from it.

I also feel that any question on any topic is equally valid and worthy in Tarot. Whatever someone is curious about they have the right ask and to know. No question or topic is any more worthy than another if it helps the person to have the answer. Unless of course when it comes to prying into someone else's life...or things of that nature. Some things are wrong to ask.

Babs

Nevada said:

I also don't think people should see a Jungian approach as canceling out the possibility of reading the future. Jung himself had premonitions of WWI, and wrote about them. He had other experiences of and interests in ESP, and he wrote about some dreams being prescient. So, for anyone to use Jung's name in an argument against reading about the future would, in my opinion, be absurd and an indication of their ignorance about Jung.

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Nevada, thank you for sharing this information. I didn't know about it and I'm sure many people didn't either. This is very interesting, and important to avoid misconceptions.

Nevada said:

I find my best readings come from a standpoint of what's happening now, reading a situation, and sometimes they offer a glimpse of how it will turn out, or some hint of the direction to take. But the best use I find with it is to understand the present in greater depth and from new perspectives I hadn't considered.

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I agree with you that the present is the most important time because it's when the future is actually being shaped. Right now. Not tomorrow. I always focus on the present matters, and try to see how they could develop in the future. But it saddens me that the more oracular aspect of tarot is nowadays being equaled to scam just because suddenly it became a psychological tool. Whenever one excludes one of the tarot's many faces it somehow becomes poorer.

SunChariot said:

What that means to us as readers, in my opinion, is that we have an obligation to explain this to our querents any time they ask for a reading on the future. They need to understand that the future is not set in stone but rather is fluid and even that they can change if they wish. To just do a reading without explaining all this is misleading, to me. As you are saying you can give them an accurate answer, when in reality...reality can change in regards to the future.

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I agree with you completely Babs. It's important to let people know that the future is always being built, so a good reading doesn't not necessarily comes true, but offers enlightenment for the person to create a better future.