Tarot origins

Diana

Well coldsuns, I suppose that your question about Satan does have something to do with Tarot origins.

Did Satan send the cards to earth? Of course he did. You can tell your friends that he even sent them Federal Express so they would arrive quicker. He had first phoned DHL, but they were far too expensive. Archeologists are still looking for the FedEx airway bill that was used. They think it is hidden at the bottom of the left paw of the Sphinx in Egypt.
 

ihcoyc

Actually, Satan tried to send the tarot to earth. But like most of his projects, it went awry; he discovered that he had sent mah-jongg instead.
 

Kiama

You guys crack me up... The last twp posts are the most original and creative answers to that question I've come across!

Mind if I quote you guys in the future?

Kiama
 

Cerulean

I just joined a yahoogroup called tarotl where I believe the moderator is collecting fragments of tarot history. Since the pages are under construction, I don't have permission yet to link to the author's page. But it follows the lines of the hermitage by Tom Tadforlittle, Andy's Playing cards and those who read Kaplan and Dummett. The focus is tarocchi and tarot in Western European cultures in countries that spanned the original areas of the Holy Roman Empire.
The U.S. Playing Card society is also putting together massive pages of samples of all sorts of card games---Europe, Asian, Islamic, etc...And if some people of different cultures believe Western card games are evil, I know historically some strict cultures such as Japan had early edicts forbidding cultural influx of Western gambling games--actually it was playing cards. It also forbade contact with foreign culture and Christian religion to the point of very horrid punishments.
And I hope this side point is not straying from the main thread:
I do not know if this is true for more than this family, but a very strict Chinese grandmother had a term once for a Western boyfriend of one of my girlfriends. Her granddaughter told me the term used was foreign devil...this might be a huge leap, but may I suggest it is not only playing cards or tarot, but similar attitudes might be applied--a stern frown from a strict culture to other forms of visible Western influences or entertainment? (For example, Western gangster rap of a decade ago.)
 

Alex

This is another thing about the Tarot

that I do not understand. This supposed connection with Satan.

My grandmother used to read cards (she's now old and says she doesn't need the cards anymore) and the rest of the family used to whisper around she had some connection with Satan. She used to reply that ignorance has a connection Satan, not cards. That cards are a way to knowledge, connecting them with Satan is a way to ignorance. Fortunately most of my family didn't understand the reply, which is very much true.

But again I would like to know if anyone has any idea where the connection between the Tarot and the Devil has come from.

Alex.

Diana said:
Well coldsuns, I suppose that your question about Satan does have something to do with Tarot origins.
Did Satan send the cards to earth? Of course he did. You can tell your friends that he even sent them Federal Express so they would arrive quicker.
 

Diana

Alex, I have two theories here. The first one will have some people throwing up their arms, because it doesn't have any historical documents to back it up. Too bad.

I believe that there is a possibility that these Tarot cards were initially created in opposition to the Church authorities of the time. By using Christian symbols, these people were possibly carrying out a highly politico-religious subversive act. (The Papess is one of the cards that makes me think this may be so.) So the Church would really hate these cards.

Secondly, and this is nothing historical, I do believe that the Church will find any excuse to prevent people from finding salvation outside of the Church. They insist on this. If you can reach salvation through Tarot cards, then the Church is in danger. The most effective way, in any domain, to get people to stop doing something is by instilling fear. And fear of the Devil is something the Church is past master at instilling. They use the Devil so well, that the two have become perfect allies, and not what one is led often to believe, enemies.
 

Cerulean

Hope these help:

General summaries of tarot origins, myths, ordering, etc...scroll down to links near the bottom. Tom Tadforlittle is excellent and is very often cited as a resource to check information:
http://www.tarothermit.com/index.htm

Independently, the link between trumps/triumph/tarocchi and dice/gambling popularity and invectives from the church against both are noted in Michael Dummat's playing and one early triumph like card game history. That may be the 'devilish link'.


Mention of popularity, invective against tarocchi and early Fererra notes: there are other pages under construction...I'm trying to help, this is part of a newer, specialized history group (small points) by the owner of a tarotl@yahoogroups.com project. The list originator is German, and still developing the information in English:

http://www.geocities.com/autorbis/ortalli.html
 

full deck

Another possibility

Could it be the connection to satan is the same as with booze?
Common people may have just played games for money, thus the church spread the word that it was devil-inspired.
 

allibee

Not that I'm trying to pump my Mamluk/Crusades theory, LOL, but didn't the Anglo Crusaders have a rather dim view of the Moors, etc? Didn't they try to claim they were 'Devils', for lots of socio/ethnic reasons?
Iffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff, I say , ifff, the cards came from the Mamluks, it's quite clear the Churches would have seen them as the 'Devil's Work', don't you think?


A.
 

baba-prague

Egypt - she said, ducking quickly

JMD and others,

I've been perfectly happy with the "tarot started as a game in Italy" history - it certainly seems to make sense. However, recently I've come across this interview with Ron Decker (hardly a lightweight in academic terms)
http://www.tarotpassages.com/deckerint.htm

The interviewer, Alma Puissegur, reports that:
_________
Ron believes that almost all of the occult beliefs about the tarot are correct, but skewed. He says that, with this assertion, he will offend the historians who think tarot is nothing but a game.

Decker believes the following: the intuition of non-historians is correct: numbers mean something, astrological symbols and indicators mean something on the psychological level--the psyche moving through growth through vices and virtues--and also on the alchemical level. Decker is particularly interested in finding the particular written mystical texts he thinks the decks are illustrating.

He doesn’t believe the cards themselves go back to Egypt, but that the actual theories that the cards illustrate do come from there. Decker doesn't think that the Cabala is part of the original design, but says the ideas are quite similar: "There are 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet that were considered mystical. Christians knew this was important to the Jews and just that limited knowledge was enough to contribute to the number of triumphs."

He thinks the designer of the “original deck” was trying to create the idea of Egyptian hieroglyphs because it was believed that the hieroglyphics were more than mere language, and that they also had hidden truths and double meanings. One meaning was contained in everyday language and words that the ordinary reader could understand, and then the second, hidden meaning existed that was only known to the "initiated" reader.
_____________

What do you make of this? I'd be very interested to know your opinions and if anyone has taken up this theory and written more about it.

Thanks! Great thread.

Karen