Dodechedron / Jean de Meung (1556)

Huck

"Dodechedron" of Jean de Meung, a divination system
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A remake of an edition of 1577, "Renouvellé et changé de la première édition"
http://www.geomance.com/dodecafr/jdemeung.htm

At "Serapeum, Zeitschrift für Bibliothekwissenschaft, Handschriftenkunde etc .., 1850/" the author Solzmann detected the text in his article about Losbücher "Die Loosbücher des Mittelalters" and was puzzled about the circumstances. His title of the Dodechodron was ...

"Le dodechedron de fortune, liure non moins plaisant et recreatif, que subtil et ingenieux entre tous les ieux et passetemps de fortune, autrefois compose par Jean le Meun pour le Roy Charles V. et mis en lumiere par F.G.L. (Franc. Grujet Lochois" ... probably Francois Grujet of Loches in the Toraine ..."). Paris. Vinc. Sertenas (or Gilles Robinet) 1556."

http://books.google.com/books?id=vLMEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA65&dq=loosbuch+serapeum&ei=C6\#PPA73,M1

... and the year of production is 1556.

According the title text Jean de Meung, famous co-author of the "Roman de la Rose", dedicated the text to the French king Charles V. (reigning 1364 - 1380) ... however, the author Jean de Meung is calculated to be dead already much earlier then this (born ca. 1250/60).

Solzmann himself couldn't find the oldest edition, but used one of 1586.
Solzmann speculates, that the dedication might have been a writing error (Charles IV. instead of Charles V) or that the production of a manuscript for Charles V. might have taken place after the death of the author.
Solzmann knows a story, according which Jean de Meung left at his death a big suitcase to the Jacobins in Paris, which contained plate of slates for writing ... the plates showed mathematical drawings, a difficult form of manuscript. Jean de Meung had a name as astrolog and alchemist.

The system works with 12 houses, which in a curious manner are connected to the 7 planets (somehow similar to the usual Planet/Zodiac arrangement, but with a contradiction):

1. L'ANGLE D'ORIENT. Saturn
2. SUCCEDENTE. Jupiter
3. LA DEESSE. Mars
4. L'ANGLE DE LA TERRE. Venus
5. BONNE FORTUNE. Mercury
6. MAUVAISE FORTUNE. Sun
7. ANGLE D'OCCIDENT. Moon
8. MAISON DE MORT. Saturn
9. MAISON DE DIEU. Jupiter
10. LE COEUR DU CIEL. Mars
11. LE BON ANGE. Venus
12. MALIN ESPRIT. Mercury

The 12 houses are arranged in a matrix towards the 12 signs of the zodiac:

1. Esprits (4 corner of the world, 4 elements, nature, luck, reason and sensuality - Aries
2. Substances, Arabian star names - Taurus
3. Impressions célestes, weather experiences and also comets - Gemini
4. Hommes, truthsayers, between them Merlin and Joachim - Cancer
5. Femmes, 10 sybils and Cassandra and Hildegardis - Leo
6. Oiseaux, Birds - Virgo
7. Animaux, Animals - Libra
8. Poissons, fishes - Scorpio
10. Herbes - Sagitarius
11. Pierres, stones - Aquarius
12. Metaux, metals - Pisces

Compare: http://www.geomance.com/dodecafr/planche1.htm

Solzmann found in the text a verse:

"Cartes et dez sont trop coleres
C'est pour gens dignes de galeres"

So playing cards are mentioned. Solzmann assumes, that, if this would be the authentical text, that this passage would speak against an authorship of Jean de Meung.
 

coredil

Fascinating!

The similarity between the name of the houses 3, 5, 6, 8, 9 and 12 and some Tarot cards is quite interesting too!

Just wondering about one thing: the writer mentions that instead of the Dodechedron dice one could eventually use two usual dice, as together they lead to the number 12.
But how on earth can you obtain the number 1 with two dices?

Thanks for this link.

Best regards
 

Huck

coredil said:
Fascinating!

The similarity between the name of the houses 3, 5, 6, 8, 9 and 12 and some Tarot cards is quite interesting too!

Just wondering about one thing: the writer mentions that instead of the Dodechedron dice one could eventually use two usual dice, as together they lead to the number 12.
But how on earth can you obtain the number 1 with two dices?

Thanks for this link.

Best regards

Indeed Solzmann speculated in his article (on the base of the state of research about the origin of Tarot at of 1850) about a relationship between Tarot and this text ... cause the name similarity. Though ... it is quite different. The "houses" are usual terms in common astrology, common, when you operate horoscopes with the ascendent.

Indeed it looks like a medieval astrology ... inclusive mistakes in order.

The idea is to work with one die with 12 sides, one of the 5 platonic bodies, a dodecaeder.
 

Bernice

As coredil says = Fascinating!

But as usual, I'm hampered by being mono-lingual.

Bee :)
 

Huck

Bernice said:
As coredil says = Fascinating!
But as usual, I'm hampered by being mono-lingual.
Bee :)

Oh, that's a pity. Especially in the times of internet and when you're interested in history.

But internet makes it easy to learn languages, perhaps not for talking it, but reading. A lot of foreign language content is simply adapted, when you change your mind and in a positive manner take simply a view at foreign language productions.
All these romanistic languages are rather similar. Start reading, if you're interested in the presented information .. the begin might be difficult, but you'll become better with the time.
It's enjoyment to be able to jump between different languages, when you're searching for specific informations.
 

Bernice

Huck: It's enjoyment to be able to jump between different languages, when you're searching for specific informations.

I can't argue with that Huck!

I have a tiny smattering of a few other languages, enough to get by on website navigation and the odd word, but not enough to actually decipher a lengthy sentence or full paragraph.

Long ago I tried to learn German and Russian - no-one else was interested (all into French), but too much was happening in my life then, and I didn't pursue any further... a sad mistake.

Bee :)
 

firecatpickles

I am going to have to run this through babelfish.altavista.com :)

Why are there so many sections labelled nos. 1 - 12? Is this explained in the directions, O our French speakers?
 

Huck

Kilted Kat said:
I am going to have to run this through babelfish.altavista.com :)

Why are there so many sections labelled nos. 1 - 12? Is this explained in the directions, O our French speakers?

12x12 is a common astrological pattern, it's usual zodiac and something else, in this case "houses" (maison). The houses are a little unusual, just "medieval", aiming at the 7 planets - the real 5 planets appear twice, sun and moon (which are not planets in the common sense) only once, as in the common zodiac attribution to planets, which is usually

Aries - Mars
Taurus - Venus
Gemini - Mercury
Cancer - Moon
Leo - Sun
Virgo - Mercury
Libra - Venus
Scorpio - Mars
Sagittarius - Jupiter
Capricorn - Saturn
Aquarius - Saturn
Pisces - Jupiter

The divination system has it with ...

1. Saturn (? Aquarius)
2. Jupiter (? Pisces)
3. Mars (? Aries)
4. Venus (? Taurus)
5. Mercury (? Gemini)

....
and till here it looks as if the author had started with 1. = Aquarius and was following the usual order till 5. = Gemini, but then he proceeds first with a twist of sun and moon ...

6. Sun (? Leo)
7. Sun (? Cancer)
...
and then he follows somehow backwards ...

8. Saturn (? Capricorn)
9. Jupiter (? Sagittarius)
10. Mars (? Scorpio)
11. Venus (? Libra)
12. Mercury (? Virgo)

.. so somehow backwards ... perhaps simply in error about astrological theories, just following an ordered repeating of the usual Chaldean order of the 5 planets.

And then his results are

1. L'ANGLE D'ORIENT. Saturn
2. SUCCEDENTE. Jupiter
3. LA DEESSE. Mars
4. L'ANGLE DE LA TERRE. Venus
5. BONNE FORTUNE. Mercury
6. MAUVAISE FORTUNE. Sun
7. ANGLE D'OCCIDENT. Moon
8. MAISON DE MORT. Saturn
9. MAISON DE DIEU. Jupiter
10. LE COEUR DU CIEL. Mars
11. LE BON ANGE. Venus
12. MALIN ESPRIT. Mercury

... and we're surprized to find Sun (usual the glorious lucky "planet") suddenly named "bad fortune". If we would assume, that the planetary attribution is simply nonsense and the sequence is orderly running from Aries to Pisces

1. L'ANGLE D'ORIENT - Cardinal sign Aries, this might express East (orient).
2. SUCCEDENTE - Success (?), might belong to the second usual house
3. LA DEESSE Gemini - the name LA DEESSE = goddess has logic, if one assumes the opposing 9th house = MAISON DE DIEU (house of God)
4. L'ANGLE DE LA TERRE. Cardinal sign Cancer, this might present South
5. BONNE FORTUNE - Leo and now it is as usual connected to "good fortune"
6. MAUVAISE FORTUNE - Virgo; the 6th house is usually connected to health and sickness, so "MAUVAISE FORTUNE" (bad luck) might be an expression for it.
7. ANGLE D'OCCIDENT - Cardinal sign Libra, this might present West (occident)
8. MAISON DE MORT - Scorpio - the 8th house is usually connected to death (Mort)
9. MAISON DE DIEU - Sagitarius - the 9th house, in astrology connected to religion. MAISON DE DIEU = "House of God"
10. LE COEUR DU CIEL - Cardinal sign Capricorn, this might present North; as South was called "DE LA TERRE" (of the earth), then "LE COEUR DU CIEL" is not a bad name; if we identify "LE COEUR DU CIEL" (heart of heaven) with the polar star in the mid of heaven, then we realize the connection to "North)
11. LE BON ANGE - Aquarius - the usual 11th house in astrology is connected to friendship
12. MALIN ESPRIT - Pisces - the usual 12th house in astrology is connected to "enemies" (Malin Esprit = "bad spirit")

So there is enough of the common astrological content in it, that anything is correctly ... one might assume, that there is just a blunder about the planetary attribution in it.

*******

What did the planets get in this system

Sun - "bad luck", very strange
Moon - "Angle occident", the West
Saturn - "Angle Orient", the East and "house of death" (Saturn is often connected to death)
Jupiter - "house of God" and "success" (this is not bad expressed)
Mars - goddess and middle of heaven ... somehow strange
Venus - the South and "bon Ange" (good angel), seems possible
Mercury - "good luck" and "bad spirit", somehow possible, if we consider Mercury as the god of trade

Well, my impression is, that it is a sort of selfmade astrology, just added to the usual content.
 

Huck

Bernice said:
I can't argue with that Huck!

I have a tiny smattering of a few other languages, enough to get by on website navigation and the odd word, but not enough to actually decipher a lengthy sentence or full paragraph.

Long ago I tried to learn German and Russian - no-one else was interested (all into French), but too much was happening in my life then, and I didn't pursue any further... a sad mistake.

Bee :)

It's not important to decipher complete sentences or full paragraphs. Also it's not important, that you wish to learn others language.
It's of importance, that you're interested in specific informations, which are not available in the English tongue. Learning the language is only a secondary effect of lower importance ... it happens by itself.

The basic motivation should come from you research interest ... if you take the "I learn this language" as your goal, you're changing your mind from a grown-up-level to a child-level and that's difficult to take for your soul. No fun, slow progress.
Being a researcher, who just needs an information at your grown-up level and you master the difficulties, that life offers. Learning the language happens by itself, you don't care.
 

kwaw

coredil said:
Just wondering about one thing: the writer mentions that instead of the Dodechedron dice one could eventually use two usual dice, as together they lead to the number 12.
But how on earth can you obtain the number 1 with two dices?

12x12 was a common format for lot books; on the use of two dice, lot books frequently incorporated 'dummy' oracles, that is oracles that could not be obtained using the presribed method (such as number one with two dice). These dummy statements were often prescriptions against fortune telling:)