Minor Arcana Correspondences

ManifestDestino

Hi, I've been doing lots of Tarot reading. I recently read a few things about the correspondences of Minor Arcana.

The Underground Stream By Christine Payne Towler and the Introduction to the Golden Dawn by Robert Wang state that the Minor Arcana have detailed sets of correspondences related to the Qaballah and Astrology, and should not be helped out with the adittion of pictures. Reading the Book of Thoth by Crowley and The golden Dawn by Regardie, these attributions are definitely made.

Wang points out in his book how very few people besides Crowley have written much about the deeper meanings of the Minor Arcana at all. He brings up how Waite added pictures to his deck and misrepresented the true esoteric attributions of the minor arcana in his deck. He explains this by saying how closely Waite was guarding the traditions and secrets of the Golden Dawn. Being a member of the Golden dawn himself, Waite obviously would have known these "true" esoteric attributions/correspondences.

In reading The Pictorial Key to the Tarot by Waite, I can't help but laugh as Waite claims absolutely no real knowledge of the Minor Arcana having any other deeper meaning than that of plain old fortune telling. That's all it is.

I haven't read The Tarot by Paul Foster Case yet, but looking at the Table of Contents, all he discusses are the Major Arcana.

I am wondering if there is anything else on this someone can elaborate for me. Maybe some new information, that I'm not aware of.

Waite really went through the trouble of creating tarot deck without the esoteric correspondences he believed to be true because he took his oaths that seriously? Why create a deck at all if it isn't what he knew to be authentic?

I'm not by any means saying that these esoteric correspondences to the Minor Arcana made by the Golden Dawn are indeed the right ones. But it's rather frustrating that so many decks are considered classic, esoteric, and are all missing parts of their tradition, because they decided to keep it in code. (or are just based on Waite, and didn't know any better.)That's really the case?

So we can all do endless amounts of reading, and wonder if Waite was just protecting us from ourselves in the name of the Golden Dawn? Or did he not really know anything?

Anybody know anything more about this? Think anything about this? Have an opinion? I'd really like to discuss.
 

philebus

Well, I find it hard to think that the 'minor arcana' was created with any set of such correspondences in mind. The Latin suited playing cards predates tarot by about 100 years in Europe and probably has its roots in the far East, perhaps with Chinese money games. Because of this, it is a bit of a bug bear for some tarot theories and I suspect that this is why it gets a little overlooked by some writers. However, if they don't have any original correspondences, then people can ligitimately use them to signify any correspondence that please them - there is no right or wrong in it, just the way different people use the cards. It's all OK.

As for Waite, from my little reading, I'm not convinced that he took the Golden Dawn and its teachings all that seriously.
 

Bernice

Hi ManifestDestino,

I go along with Philebus's response. In the end, it's the 'reader' who will use the cards - and yes, people have different ideas about esoteric methods & systems. So whatever suits you for divination or other purposes, go with it.

However, The latin suited pip cards (playing card deck) are now belived (known, actually) to have been derived from the Mamluk cards, which in turn were probably derived from the Chinese Money cards. And any 'occult' meanings for the Mamluk deck - if there were any - are quite unknown.

If you want to discuss the Golden Dawn and their use of the 78 card Tarot deck, try the Rider-Waite thread. Have you looked at Papus or the Oswald Wirth systems yet? They preceed the G.D.

Bee :)
 

ManifestDestino

I appreciate both of your replies.

Does anyone have a link to info about or info about the work that cites the mamluk minor arcana connection?

While I may have focused on Waite, and even the Minor Arcana, I suppose I just wanted to discuss esoteric correspondences with the Tarot period, how they have been attibutted, and why. I highlighted the Waite and Golden Dawn issue, prompting anyone who may know more about it to speak.

I definitely agree that no set of correspondences are Tarot are the "right" ones. I don't think any part of the Tarot was created at one time to be any one thing, ever. It would have to have main author and perhaps a few supplementary ones, and that's it. Clearly, any and all correspondences to the Tarot have been added over time, by different secret societies.

Yes, in the end, it all depends on the reader and his/her intuition. A psychic who used 3 card tarot spreads at the end of her reading told me once she wasn't a tarot reader. She used the waite deck and I remarked how she didn't use reversed cards. She didn't like to use them she said- except for only the 3 and 10 of swords. This, she said, she could not ignore the power of, because it meant the swords are ready to fall out. I really liked her interpretation of the cards, thought they were very meaningful. The psychic readings she gave were very powerful. And her meanings for the cards wouldn't be found in any book.

I also read the I-Jing, and personally, I feel those readings to have a different quality and well, mostly, more definite explanation and outcome. They're a completely different set of correspondences as well. So no one set is right and better.

However. The I-jing is a book itself, that can be referred to, and is based on a system. Written in Traditional Chinese, its meanings have been altered as well, over time through language, and was also made over a period of time by 3 different authors. It in itself, is an oracle, and a set of correspondences.

Many people refer to the Tarot as a book- but it is not nearly as organized as the I-jing, due to its creation and the differences of its authors. Having a system of meaning to correspond to is very important I believe, because the principles built in behind such a system provide very accurate, meaningful readings- if they are in touch with the meanings of the universe themselves, to a close degree.

So that's why bother readings anything at all. In the end it does all matter to your intuition- but with nothing to refer to- why even read the "divinatory meanings" pamphlet in your Tarot box?

The Tarot to me unfortunately seems like such a big mess, with Italian, Spanish, and English (Golden Dawn) versions differing, and without anything to unify it, many become confused, frustrated (like me) and many decide, oh, who even cares anymore. Everyone's ideas have to have come from one place though, during Tarot's ongoing conception, like we all do.


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Oh, and I haven't looked at Papus or Wirth yet. Nor Ettellia or de Gebelin. From what I have read, Ettellia and his deck seem very variant and interesting- anything I should know about Papus or Wirth?
 

rachelcat

Mystical Origins of the Tarot: From Ancient Roots to Modern Usage by Paul Huson may be of interest to you.
 

ManifestDestino

I'll definitely check out all the information provided.

Regarding a review I just read on Huson's book on Amazon.com-

"Furthermore Paul Huson goes deeply into the traditions underpinning the cartomantic significance of each card, giving the divinatory rundown from Pratesi's Cartomancer of 1750 to A.E. Waite in 1910 along with his own suggested keywords for readings. One surprising turn-up for the books transpires when the author locates the direct source of the Golden Dawn Decanic system of the Minor Cards in the section on the 36 Decan images in Book II of the Arab grimoire called the Picatrix. The 16 legendary personages identified with the court cards likewise opens up fascinating points of symbolic comprehension..."

Yeah, I think that book will be interesting.
 

DoctorArcanus

Scion and the Decans

Hi ManifestDestino,
if you have an interest in the decans, I suggest you find a copy of the Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal deck and PM your email address to Scion so that he can send to you the current version of the document he is working on. He has collected information from a number of ancient sources (including Picatrix and Bruno). An amazing work!

You will find out that, for once, things really go back to Egypt :)
 

Yygdrasilian

Entering the Hall of Maat

DoctorArcanus said:
You will find out that, for once, things really go back to Egypt :)
Just once?
 

Greg Stanton

DoctorArcanus said:
Hi ManifestDestino,
if you have an interest in the decans, I suggest you find a copy of the Liber T: Tarot of Stars Eternal deck and PM your email address to Scion so that he can send to you the current version of the document he is working on. He has collected information from a number of ancient sources (including Picatrix and Bruno). An amazing work!

You will find out that, for once, things really go back to Egypt :)

None of the above works are Egyptian, nor can they be traced to Egypt. Please explain.