Minor Arcana Correspondences

Greg Stanton

ManifestDestino said:
I do agree with something in Israel Regardie wrote in the Golden Dawn though, and that's that it is best to have any method of divination be executed in tandem with the closet esoteric correspondences possible, in order to give you a more accurate reading.
My personal experience has been that esoteric correspondences tend to confuse and cloud a reading rather than illuminate it. Once I re-learned the cards without their occultic associations, they spoke directly and clearly rather than "esoterically".

That's just me though. It's different for everyone.
 

Scion

Exactly. I'm the opposite. The more I learn, the more connections I make, the more specific and powerful the readings.
 

DoctorArcanus

Alchemy

ManifestDestino said:
Spiritual growth, that's supposed to be worth more than all the gold in the world right?

If you have an interest in the making of spiritual gold, consider exploring Adam McLean's Alchemy Web Site:


Neither the ancient nor the modern Philosophers have ever made anything but Gold of Gold, and Silver of Silver, yet that was not common Gold or Silver. By which it appears, that the Philosophers Gold is not common Gold, neither in colour nor in substance.
 

John Meador

ManifestDestino said:
However, I knew the book wasn't all I was thinking right out of the box, looking like it was printed in someone's basement in an Oregon forest town. Then like you said, when she gets into "Holy Blood, Holy Tarot" I was taken aback by all of a sudden reading a Mary Magdalene romance story...

I like the idea Bradford has regarding all of this, because really, it's all we can do, is test out all these arbirtary attributions and see how they work. And as Scion points out, that's where most of civilization comes from....

and I do lament, just at how unorganized this Tarot book is, especially when the majority of the Tarot's writers who I read about these correspondences from argue and contradict each other. They remind me of snobby intellectuals in school fighting over who is right and more elite than the other person, getting hot-headed and biased in the process. I'm thinking of Waite and Christine Payne Towler specifically, at the moment.
.

Lol

If you only knew how much Christine despises Waite...
Anyway, keep in mind her book was published in 1999 and we've all learned a great deal since then. She tries to publish her present thinking re Tarot at her Arkletter blog. Here is a relevant discussion of the subject at hand:
http://noreah.typepad.com/tarot_arkletters/2007/03/shem_angels.html
She can be reached for comment through her site, I think.
I highly regard her friendship- we pretty much bounce ideas off one another every few days. She's not afraid to be controversial or provocative and she is willing to persist in her omnivorous researching.

-John
 

Scion

For what it's worth... a 1551 copy of De Doctrina Promiscua by Martius which discusses some allegorical attributions for the pips is available on ebay.

Thought someone might be interested. :)
 

kapoore

science of the elements

Hi ManifestoDestino,
Before the printing press and before paper was readily available, people had to carry a lot of things around in their memories. They did this by creating geometric shapes and attaching attributes to them. It might be worthwhile picking up a history book on the art of memory. The Art of Memory by Frances Yates; The Book of Memory by Mary Carruthers, and Diagrammatic reasoning and modelling in the imagination by James Franklin (he might still be on the web) are a few places to start.

Tarot is such a memory system held in the mind, not unlike most card games where one has to keep what cards have been played (the whole deck) in mind.

The Tarot is based on a geometric shape that contain the elemental science. In Tarot, the four suits of the Minor Arcana are given elemental attributes: water/cups; swords/air; rods/fire; and coins/ earth. These four elements also take on astrological attributes, and there actually was a science of elemental astrology. The four elements also were used as four modes of perception: earth/senses; water/emotion; air/rationality; and fire/intuition. To the ancient and medieval mind the elements never existed in a pure state in reality, they always existed in composites. Everything had all four elements but to varying degrees.

Now turn to the faculties of perception. Imagine the Waite deck where the male suits count down and the female suits count up. The geometry here is a long rectangle with four across and 9 down (aces as pure elements are not included) Thus the suit of Rods or Intuition would rule the lower numbers of Swords and the higher numbers of Coins and Cups; and the suit of coins would rule the higher numbers of Swords and Rods. The rational faculty (Swords 8,9,10) composite in the sensual world (coins 2,3,4) is going to feel stuck, while in the middle range of its own world would be clarity(5,6,7). The intuitional faculty (rods) in the sensual world is going to be instinct(8,9,10), while in its own world would be visionary(2,3,4). However the sensual world in the intuitional will be art (coins 8,9,10). Thus, music can be sound (sensual), or emotional (memory, imagination), or rational in understanding how notes represent ratios in a interval scale, or intuitional as in all of these combined in a visionary sense.

So, you get a feeling for how this system works. This was the way the ancients thought, and medieval scholars thought. When that world began to die out and book printing took over the place of the imagination; the ancient system became the hidden symbols of a game. If you come to know this ancient way of ordering the universe, you will see that it leads to a profound opening of the mind to the power of symbolism.

In terms of divination. I am not a professional reader but I have an some truly strange coincidences. And yet at other times, the cards go dark, so to speak. The moment has to be right... Warm regards..
 

Bernice

Kapoore:..... The Tarot is based on a geometric shape that contain the elemental science. In Tarot, the four suits of the Minor Arcana are given elemental attributes: water/cups; swords/air; rods/fire; and coins/ earth. These four elements also take on astrological attributes, and there actually was a science of elemental astrology. The four elements also were used as four modes of perception: earth/senses; water/emotion; air/rationality; and fire/intuition. To the ancient and medieval mind the elements never existed in a pure state in reality, they always existed in composites. Everything had all four elements but to varying degrees.

I think you meant to say "The Tarot can be based on a geometric shape that contain the elemental science." etc

There is no evidence that the 78 card deck was originally based on anything in particular. However, there are many ancient and modern sources to draw from if one wants to create a sytem. It seems that you have done this, and the method works for you. :)

Bee
 

kapoore

I stand corrected. Thanks
 

Cerulean

Here's a few suggestions for checking out history

If you want several topics in tarot history covered, including how different authors and thinkers treated tarot minors, some great references for me:

A Wicked Pack of Cards: The Origins of the Occult Tarot
Ronald Decker, Thierry DePaulis & Michael Dummett

A History of the Occult Tarot 1870-1970
Ronald Decker & Michael Dummett

As a general guide...
And perhaps this timeline is helpful as you work through your resources:
http://www.tarotpassages.com/mkgtimeline.htm

Beginning at 1780, there's more specific items of Minor Archana correspondences with astrology and tarot cards:

1783-86 Publication of Etteilla’s Manière de se ré créer avec le Jeu de Cartes nommées Tarots (A way to entertain onesel with the pack of cards called Tarots) in four parts. He claims it was devised by a committee of seventeen magi, presided over by Hermes Trismegistus nearly 4,000 years before. The first copy was inscribed on leaves of gold which were disposed about a fire temple at Memphis. [3Ds, pp. 83-85] His recreation of the deck has the first 12 cards based on the creation myths in the Divine Pymander, and on astrology, as he felt Tarot could be consulted in an astrological manner.

1789 Publication of the first Etteilla deck. Available as the Grand Etteilla deck from Grimaud since 1982. The Trumps and all astrological correspondences are as follows:
1 - Etteilla - Le Consultant (Male). Aries. (Papus says this is "special to the Tarot of Etteilla" - I'd make it the Bateleur (as does Edmond))

2 - Eclaircissement (Enlightenment/Fire). Taurus. (Papus: Sun)

3 - Propos (Discussion/Water). Gemini. (Papus: Moon)

4 - Dépouillement (Loss/Air). Cancer. (Papus: Star)

5 - Voyage (Travel/Earth). Leo. (Papus: World)

6 - Nuit (Night/Day). Virgo. (Papus: Empress - I'd make it the Popess)

7 - Appui (Support/Protection). Libra. (Papus: Emperor)

8 - Etteilla - Le Consultante (Female). Scorpio. (Papus: Popess - I'd make it the Empress)

9 - La Justice (Justice/Jurist). Sagittarius. (Papus: Justice)

10 - La Tempérance (Temperance/Priest). Capricorn. (Papus: Temperance)

11 - La Force (Strength/Monarch). Aquarius. (Papus: Force, i.e., Strength)

12 - La Prudence (Prudence/The Masses). Pisces. (Papus: Hanged Man)

13 - Mariage (Marriage/Union). (Papus: Lovers)

14 - Force Majeure (Absolute Necessity/Absolute Necessity). (Papus: Devil)

15 - Maladie (Illness/Illness). (Papus: Bateleur - I'd make it the Pope - it shows the same person as performed the Marriage (in bishop's fish-hat) holding a wand over an altar table with ram's heads on the corners; one of the reversed meanings is "Mage".

16 - Jugement (Judgment/Judgment). (Papus: Judgment)

17 - Mortalité (Death/Nothingness). (Papus: Death)

18 - Traître (Traitor/Traitor). (Papus: Hermit)

19 - Détresse or Misere (Poverty/Prison). (Papus: Tower)

20 - Fortune (Fortune/Raise). (Papus: Wheel of Fortune)

21 - Dissension (Disagreement/Disagreement). (Papus: Chariot)

68 - Ten of Coins = Part of Fortune

69 - Nine of Coins = South Node

70 - Eight of Coins = North Node

71 - Seven of Coins = Saturn

72 - Six of Coins = Jupiter

73 - Five of Coins = Mars

74 - Four of Coins = Moon

75 - Three of Coins = Venus

76 - Two of Coins = Mercury

77 - Ace of Coins = Sun

(From Mary Greer's timeline reference)

Likely you've gathered some other Etteilla references already...I found Papus as well as other historical references useful on my reading journeys.

But not everyone wants more than a good reading outline of tarot heritage, and I think Paul Huson's book is a nice guide of different historic deck styles and heritages. The minors are covered wonderfully in that book and organized in a way to be a great reference.

Hope your researches lead to interesting insights.

Cerulean
 

Bernice

Great thread. Ideal for checking out & applying valid resources for creating TdM meanings. If ever we find out what the Mamluks did with their deck, it would be the icing on the cake!

Bee :)