Plato and Tarot

kapoore

Hi Beanu,
I'm a new participator and don't know how to reach your profile. I would be interested in seeing what you have written on alchemy and Kabbalah.
Tell me how to do it. Thanks
 

kapoore

Hi,
I have clicked your Tree of Life diagram with the Trumps into my file. Let me review it and play with it for awhile. Is there are preface or synopsis page that might guide me as to how you combine the three traditions?

You should know that I am not proficient in Kabbalah/Tarot and so I would not instantly know how your diagram differs from the other theories on Tarot orders on the Tree of Life. I'll give you my general impressions and get back to you. We are all fellow travelers along the Tarot research path. I appreciate your efforts.
 

kapoore

Hi Beanu,
I found the text. Also, what I know of Tarot origins--and I'm thinking here of Pythagorean/Platonism, etc. it was designed as a perceptual tool. Any combination of systems such as Kabbalah or alchemy with Tarot could enhance the lens and be valid within that tradition. It is a way of extending the intuitive sense, just as a microscope extends the visual sense and radio receptors extend the auditory sense.

Also, I am studying Ramon Llull who lived at the same time as Moses De Leon and in the same northern Spain context. Ramon Llull has also been associated with alchemy. In my mind, the Tarot is a Lullian system. Lull's association with alchemy was after his death and probably not authentic. But that doesn't exclude the fact that someone working with Lull's concepts might have called it alchemy.

I'll read your text and view your diagrams with Lull/alchemy/De Leon in mind. But give me a week.. Be well..
 

blue_fusion

beanu said:
I treat the sequence of Tarot majors as the "descent",
with our attempts to rise again being the "ascent".
For this, you need to read the sequence backwards.

However, my theories are more complex, and end up on the tree of life on the spheres, so the concept of a single path through it all becomes meaningless.
I see
Temperance in Netzach
Justice is in Tipharet, the center that influences everything
Strength is in Geburah
Hermit (assuming he is Wisdom) in Chesed

How does that fit for you?

Hi Beanu. Thanks, especially since I'm not too well-versed in the Kabbalah (I had to bring out a diagram to see the points you mentioned). Weird, though, here, temperance is between Tiphereth and Yesod, Justice between eburah and Tiphereth, etc.

I guess the point I was trying to make earlier is that, following Plato's Republic, the three virtues he mentioned there are Temperance, Strength and Wisdom. Justice being, not a virtue in itself, but a "working fulfillment" of each virtue respective of the caste they're associated with (e.g. workers have a tendency for intemperance-vice, and temperance-virtue. Workers follow a just path in life by striving for temperance).

Given this scheme, I feel that Justice, if you follow that way of thinking, would have to have the "outsideness" attributed to the Fool, both removed and present in the entire Majors, not part of the sequence itself (as he has no number) but ever there. Come to think of it, "outsideness" is also a quality relating to his eidos!

I am not suggesting that the Fool be representative of Plato's Justice! Though I can see perhaps Socratic association with it (openness to wonder, potential, "unsophisticatedness").
 

beanu

Blue,
I see your point, especially the Fool.
I treat the Fool as Hermes/Mercury - messenger of the Gods.
As such he represents the message of the Gods, which would tie in with an understanding of ones destined purpose in this life, ones rightful place.

I think Crowley used to refer to knowledge of, and conversation with, ones Holy Guardian Angel.
I have seen evidence of Hermes in alchemical images being replaced with Raphael - Archangel of Healing - and so related to the Caduceuas - Hermes' staff of healing, in the Lovers card.
see towards the end of
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=5687&post=53938&uid=18494666563#post53938

So the evolution from Hermes as messenger of the Gods to Crowley's HGA seems supported, and matches very well to Plato's concept of Justice as you have described it.
 

Parzival

plato and tarot

This is an interesting and important inquiry. But it may be more about Platonism and Neoplatonism, with its strong influence on the Renaissance, rather than Plato direct. I wonder about the Fool as representing Plato's "Divine insanity" as described in Plato's Phaedrus, which was so admired by the Neoplatonists. Basically, one who "filled with divine enthusiasm" by union with the Divine is considered insane by others. He separates from the multitude and goes his solitary, mad way, intoxicated with the Divine. A kind of wise fool, one might say. The tarot fool ?
 

kwaw

Frank Hall said:
This is an interesting and important inquiry. But it may be more about Platonism and Neoplatonism, with its strong influence on the Renaissance, rather than Plato direct. I wonder about the Fool as representing Plato's "Divine insanity" as described in Plato's Phaedrus, which was so admired by the Neoplatonists. Basically, one who "filled with divine enthusiasm" by union with the Divine is considered insane by others. He separates from the multitude and goes his solitary, mad way, intoxicated with the Divine. A kind of wise fool, one might say. The tarot fool ?

~the concept of divine frenzy is one rooted in classical sources, included Plato as may be found discussed in Ficino.

In reference to tarot I think an aesthetic concept of 'madness' as an inspirational source of artistic creativity probably influenced at least the later positioning of the fool at XXII in the Belgium pattern.

See the posts on the Bentveughel's in thread on the Belgian tarot here:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=98107&page=3&pp=10
 

Parzival

Yes, yes, Divine intoxication. But I wonder about the Fool as the outcast of society who is considered insane, who is one with the Divine. Actually, Plato indicates four Divine intoxications, from Apollo, prophetic inspiration; to Bacchus, mystic inspiration; to The Muses, poetic inspiration; and to the "best of all", Venusian, the "amatory mania" (Phaedrus). So the Fool is the journeyer through the four inspirations, ending in union with the "World Soul." Zero to Twenty-one. Obviously, this is a wild hypothesis that needs some further investigation or scholar's elimination.
 

beanu

Exactly.

Fools Journey - From Divine Intoxication to World Soul - superb. Thank you.

Could the four frenzies be related to the four elements?
Fire = Wands = Apollo
Water = Cups = Bacchus
Air = Swords = Muses
Earth = Pentacles = Phaedrus
?

If the Fool is mercury who talks to god,
then what do we generally think of people who talk to god - directly - and get answers back - clear conversation, not just praying?

What is the main medication for schizophrenia?

But if its real....

I understand there are a lost of European traditions in which the fool or Jester always leads the parades.

We often call the mentally unwell "touched", forgetting that the origin of the phrase is "touched by god".

Does anyone remember the full and original quote that goes something like "out of the mouths of babes and fools ..."