Pictures of men reading cards prior to 1960??

Teheuti

Ross G Caldwell said:
Vitali's caption reads:

"Cagliostro reading the cards from Le Grand Etteilla, ou l'art de tirer les cartes by Julia Orsini (Paris, around 1838).
Great find, Ross. Perfect, in fact. Do you mind my putting it on my blog? The examples turning up here are exactly what I've been looking for. Can I also use Die kartenschlaegerin?

Is that a fishing pole sticking over the chair? What's the scenario? Seems like a middle class family (perhaps on a picinic outing?) visiting a working class home where the elderly grandmother is known to read the cards. The woman standing behind the family seems of a lower class then they are - so could she have been a "local" who has brought the family to the tarot reader (a kind of procuress)? I love all the details in the picture.

Mary
 

Teheuti

Bernice said:
Is Ross's find enough Mary?
It's never "enough." We depend far too much on the written word in our historical research. Images are also historical documents and can often tell us what other sources choose not to say.

For instance, while many of the writers who've mentioned cartomancy have referred to it as a woman's entertainment, how many have noted the class and age difference between the majority of readers and those receiving the readings - except when mentioning the gypsies? And, isn't it notable that the women readers are mostly poor and, often old, while the very, very few men depicted are mostly depicted as cultured and dashing? (Although I don't doubt that poor men occasionally were readers - though I imagine they preferred to provided other occult services.

What might Julia Orsini been trying to convey by picturing Cagliostro in her book?

Mary
 

Teheuti

Elven said:
Hope this might help - there are 2 men in the plate ....
this is 'The Game of Scartino' plate taken from the Book Lords and Ladies of the Italian Lakes. Michalino Da Bedozzo - Palazzo Bonardo, Milan.
Elven - thanks for bringing this up. There is no doubt that I know of that they are playing a card game - not doing divination. It is in a room depicting other games. I've been there and have my own photo of this fresco - with a light from the window striking tarot deck artist Brian Williams in a very angelic way! http://home.pacbell.net/mkgreer/TarotTour.html

Mary
 

Teheuti

coredil said:
There is a picture (lithographie) from Louis Leopold Boilly from 1826 called: "Le tireur de cartes" (it means "The card reader" and tireur is male).
It's interesting that if you search on the masculine form of card reader in any language prior to 1950 you may find 0-2 images. Whereas if you search on the feminine form you'll probably find 10 or more.

I'm guessing that far less than 10% of the older images of card readers are male. Maybe closer even to 1%.

Mary
 

Elven

Teheuti said:
Elven - thanks for bringing this up. There is no doubt that I know of that they are playing a card game - not doing divination. It is in a room depicting other games. I've been there and have my own photo of this fresco - with a light from the window striking tarot deck artist Brian Williams in a very angelic way! http://home.pacbell.net/mkgreer/TarotTour.html

Mary

Oh That is awesome Mary! Thankyou for the link! WoW it look different in colour and its large! Very cool!

Cheers
Elven x
 

coredil

Teheuti said:
It's interesting that if you search on the masculine form of card reader in any language prior to 1950 you may find 0-2 images. Whereas if you search on the feminine form you'll probably find 10 or more.

I'm guessing that far less than 10% of the older images of card readers are male. Maybe closer even to 1%.

Mary
Yes, sure.
It is also interesting that Gebelin, Etteilla, Eliphas Levi, Paul Christian, Wirth, Waite, Gerard Encausse, Picard, Maxwell, Marteau, Crowley and so many more are mens ;)

During a long time there were only a few women as orchestra conductors!
But it is also amazing how many great male conductors or composers have learned by Nadja Boulanger :)
 

Ross G Caldwell

Aulruna said:
Ross - "Die Kartenschlaegerin" means "The Card Reader" in its female version, so that's a woman depicted (albeit not exactly a babe :D )

Thanks Aulruna. I noted that - when I took a good look at it I wasn't sure it was a man, old men and women often look the same past a certain age.

I thought the title might be wrong - often happens. I think it merits the description "ambiguous".
 

Teheuti

coredil said:
Yes, sure.
It is also interesting that Gebelin, Etteilla, Eliphas Levi, Paul Christian, Wirth, Waite, Gerard Encausse, Picard, Maxwell, Marteau, Crowley and so many more are mens ;)

During a long time there were only a few women as orchestra conductors!
But it is also amazing how many great male conductors or composers have learned by Nadja Boulanger :)
Of the men you mentioned only a few were card readers. Mostly they wrote down and "codified" what others were doing (or what they thought they "should" be doing). Of course these men have been hugely influential, although more generally in the field of occult tarot. The field of readings with playing cards was more dominated by women and all the paintings I've found have depicted playing cards and not tarot (at least so far as can be seen).

All of the artists of these paintings (on my site + more) are men (I believe) so it could be a case of women being seen as cartomancers similar to virtues etc. being feminine.
 

Ross G Caldwell

Teheuti said:
Great find, Ross. Perfect, in fact. Do you mind my putting it on my blog? The examples turning up here are exactly what I've been looking for. Can I also use Die kartenschlaegerin?

Is that a fishing pole sticking over the chair? What's the scenario? Seems like a middle class family (perhaps on a picinic outing?) visiting a working class home where the elderly grandmother is known to read the cards. The woman standing behind the family seems of a lower class then they are - so could she have been a "local" who has brought the family to the tarot reader (a kind of procuress)? I love all the details in the picture.

Mary

Please do use them Mary.

It does look like a fishing pole... I'll have to think about it. I really haven't studied the painting - and all such paintings deserve a good study.They all have movement, plot, narrative...
 

Teheuti

Ross G Caldwell said:
I think it merits the description "ambiguous".
Looks to me like a skirt under the table.