Lovers RX

pageofswords9110

How would you see the lovers ex in the position of someone's intentions in your life?
I know the lovers is related to the devil which talks about deception and hedonism. And the lovers ex is definitely a break and non committed but this person won't leave the other alone. So is this about wanting sexual control over the other ? Like mind games wanting sex but never fully committing
 

pageofswords9110

Or could this be finally wanting to break the connection for good ?
 

tarot_quest

I am not sure if I can be of any help here, because I don't have those definitions in mind when I think about rx Lovers.

I simply see it as not making a choice (most of the time intentionally) for different reasons.
 

IndigoWaves

It could indicate the desire for a purely physical relationship (and not necessarily manipulation/deception) by rejecting (Rx) a romanticized, potentially over-idealized "soulmate" connection... But Lovers = Gemini, as well, and so-called "negative" (Rx) expressions of this Airy sign do include mind games and a Mercurial lack of commitment... So it's pretty hard to say exactly what the person's intentions are with just this card.

(I'd only see it as wanting to "break the connection for good" if this person were openly antagonizing the other or avoiding contact, though.)
 

pageofswords9110

tarot_quest said:
I am not sure if I can be of any help here, because I don't have those definitions in mind when I think about rx Lovers.

I simply see it as not making a choice (most of the time intentionally) for different reasons.
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I could see this making sense. I'm pretty sure he's dating other women so he may not make a choice to completely commit. Like he wants to keep his options open.
 

pageofswords9110

IndigoWaves said:
It could indicate the desire for a purely physical relationship (and not necessarily manipulation/deception) by rejecting (Rx) a romanticized, potentially over-idealized "soulmate" connection... But Lovers = Gemini, as well, and so-called "negative" (Rx) expressions of this Airy sign do include mind games and a Mercurial lack of commitment... So it's pretty hard to say exactly what the person's intentions are with just this card.

(I'd only see it as wanting to "break the connection for good" if this person were openly antagonizing the other or avoiding contact, though.)
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A purely physical connection makes sense. He's the player type. But he is also playin mind games as he said he wants a commitment but not really acting upon it. So I definitely see the negative mercurial aspect coming to surface.
 

Thirteen

How can I have what I want without paying for it?

tarot_quest said:
I simply see it as not making a choice (most of the time intentionally) for different reasons.
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You may be right about that. The Lovers is often about making a hard choice in order to have that "soulmate" connection. Rx would indicate the person's refusal to make that hard choice. So, for example, a married man may try to have the other woman, yet not get divorced. Or a player, as we're conjecturing here, may want to have all that a relationship would bring (devoted girlfriend, sex, etc.), yet not do any of the hard work on his part to earn that.

This refusal to make a choice would include a refusal to give up the thing they want. That is always the other choice of the Lovers. A person can decide that they can't give into "love" and follow their soul in this. That they must reject what is attracting them. This person clearly doesn't want to reject what is attracting them...but doesn't want to do what is required to have it, either.

This, by the way, is how the Lovers relates to the Devil. In the Lovers (upright), you CAN reject what is attracting you if you feel it would do too much damage. But in the Devil, you feel like you can't refuse what is attracting you. You feel (wrongly) that you are enslaved to it, and you may not even care what damage you are doing. Lovers rx is NOT the Devil, however, as the person isn't feeling enslaved. Rather, it is, rather, a kind of laziness or, as said, mind-game of "how to I have want I want without paying for it?" I would say that is the "intent" here. "How can I have what I want without paying for it?" This person may think they can hound the other person into submitting. But they're fooling themselves. They won't ever get what they really want unless they "pay" for it.
 

tarot_quest

Thirteen said:
You may be right about that. The Lovers is often about making a hard choice in order to have that "soulmate" connection. Rx would indicate the person's refusal to make that hard choice. So, for example, a married man may try to have the other woman, yet not get divorced. Or a player, as we're conjecturing here, may want to have all that a relationship would bring (devoted girlfriend, sex, etc.), yet not do any of the hard work on his part to earn that.

This refusal to make a choice would include a refusal to give up the thing they want. That is always the other choice of the Lovers. A person can decide that they can't give into "love" and follow their soul in this. That they must reject what is attracting them. This person clearly doesn't want to reject what is attracting them...but doesn't want to do what is required to have it, either.

This, by the way, is how the Lovers relates to the Devil. In the Lovers (upright), you CAN reject what is attracting you if you feel it would do too much damage. But in the Devil, you feel like you can't refuse what is attracting you. You feel (wrongly) that you are enslaved to it, and you may not even care what damage you are doing. Lovers rx is NOT the Devil, however, as the person isn't feeling enslaved. Rather, it is, rather, a kind of laziness or, as said, mind-game of "how to I have want I want without paying for it?" I would say that is the "intent" here. "How can I have what I want without paying for it?" This person may think they can hound the other person into submitting. But they're fooling themselves. They won't ever get what they really want unless they "pay" for it.
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You perfectly described an ''almost relationship'' I had, and yes, rx Lovers came up multiple times.

The analogy with the Devil is interesting (I do get the difference). I was simply wondering if you used the Devil as a comparison to make a point or if there is a traditional (whatsoever) link between these 2 cards? It's true that in both cards (Lovers and Devil) there is a couple (on some decks an happy couple or a man making a choice and one feeling enslaved for the Devil) but besides this, is there another link that I have missed or never seen yet?
 

Thirteen

tarot_quest said:
if there is a traditional (whatsoever) link between these 2 cards?
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The Thoth/RWS experts would know more than I on this score, but the link seems to be mostly an RWS conceit. And you can see how he made the "leap" if you look at the Marseilles tarot. There you see the devil with two chained captives. It's not too much of a stretch for a tarot deck creator to see that image as relating to the Lovers card with its man and woman.

Waite and other Golden Dawn sorts were very into the dichotomy of Earthly vs. Spiritual, and the idea that we have to climb back up to grace via a series of esoteric tests, rituals and lessons. So, you can see how Waite might have envisioned the Lovers and Devil, both with twin figures, as a good way of getting across the difference between earthly and "corrupt" attraction vs. heavenly/pure attraction. Especially if you make the Lovers a biblical allusion to Adam & Eve, as Waite does. There they are in the Lovers card, prior to the fall, and thus "pure" in their attraction (without any Earthly desires). The angel reinforces this, indicating that their connection is spiritual. This in contrast to the Devil, a fallen angel, presiding over the couple post-fall. Indicative that they can be seduced by Earthly desires and needs, enslaved to them even, and need to free themselves from this if they want to return to the spiritual.

Which is all to say, RWS most certainly wants you to make the connection between the two; they look too similar in appearance and positioning to do otherwise. But there likely wasn't any tradition of it prior to that. :)
 

rwcarter

The connection between the Lovers and the Devil is numerological. 1+5 (Devil) = 6 (Lovers). So the Devil can be seen as a higher manifestation of the Lovers.

Rodney
 
7 of swords reversed as expectations Seven swords clarified by hierophant as potential