"The Key to the Tarot" by A.E. Waite

Re: Hi Vincent

Fulgour said:

Six questions just for me and only one "perhaps" from you...

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But, unfortunately, no answers from you

Fulgour said:

Well, let's see. If you only had enough money to buy either
the book by A.E.Waite or the deck by Pamela Colman Smith,
which would you choose?

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How is that relevant as to whether you have any evidence for your claims?


Vincent

danubhe said:

I think that Fulgour means that the finished product has certain relics in it, like the relationship between teh B & J & the other letterings, that may bring into question as to whether or not the ideas represented in the deck were original to "Pixie", or if perhaps her mentor (?) had them adulterated. .

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This is being discussed in another thread
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30966

danubhe said:

It's a question that needs to be asked.

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Questions are fine.

Assertions are a little different.

If someone makes an assertion, then isn't the only sensible course of action to ask what evidence they have for making that assertion? Especially when they label it as 'probable', or 'very likely'.

After all, they could be mistaken. Or, even worse, they may have no evidence whatsoever, and are simply making it up.



Vincent

half a quid

So, you would choose the book ~ but with pictures, eh?
Fair enough, since Rider & Sons charged the same price
for Waite's Key as they did later for his Pictorial Key...
But you missed a bargain: Pam's deck cost a little more.

What an argument!

& Here I unwittingly started it!!

Waitey prose

Normal English:
"The boy walked to the store and bought a loaf of bread."

Waite:
"At some unspecified time and at an equally indeterminate location, it has been alleged by sources we may presume to credit -- at least within the parameters of this discussion -- that a male, supposedly well under the term of his majority, did (and being so described, we can assume funded for the purpose), make his way via perambulation to a commercial establishment where we are to suppose provisions were to be obtained, and having so arrived, is further said to have purchased for an undisclosed sum a standard measure of baked goods; most probably bread as the term loaf has been suggested in this context but not confirmed -- yet we can, for all practical purposes, concede the probability that the quantity of victuals may not have exceeded this single increment in light of the routine nature of the errand, the lack of auxiliary conveyance implied in the means of transit described, and the restricted pecuniary allotments most commonly assigned to those of such tender years, but to reach any more specific conclusions based on the few facts available would perhaps be imprudent."

by "King Sword" (alt.magick)

LOL! Thanks Fulgour, I enjoyed that, and I agree with the implied assessment of Waite's writing style.

As you've probably concluded from this thread, Fulgour, my opinions about the origin of the deck and who did what on it are much more in line with Vincent's than with yours. But all rancour aside, I would be interested to hear from you (if you're interested in telling us) why you feel (and forgive me if I paraphrase your position incorrectly) that Smith created and drew the deck, submitted it for publication, and then Waite, who was heretofore uninvolved, suddenly pops up and writes a book about it and claims credit for having created it and having commissioned Smith to be the deck's artist, such claims being supposedly false.

This would be in contrast to the more commonly held belief that Waite did indeed conceive of the deck, and did commission Smith to do the art, and dictated to her the vast majority of the content of the images of the Majors and an unknown but presumably significant amount of the content of the images of the Minors.

The evidence for the latter view is the statements of Waite himself. As far as I know, there are no contemporary accounts by other people of the creation of the deck, so we are left with Waite's and Smith's statements. The single quote attributed to Smith, which you quote in an earlier post, doesn't mention Waite, but there was really no reason for her to mention him, because the letter containing those words pertained only to the artwork, its possible sale, and her fears about the printing process, none of which had anything to do with Waite.

So that leaves us with Waite's comments. As they've been quoted here, he several times makes reference to having conceived of the deck and of dictating the cards' symbolism to Smith. Sometimes it's not clear exactly to what degree of control Waite is speaking to (one may argue, for example, whether he is responsible for all of the imagery or most of the imagery), but it seems clear, if we are to take Waite at his word, that he is at least responsible for most of the content of the imagery, that is, deciding what will go on each card, and that he directed Smith what to draw, and she drew it. I personally believe she threw in atmospheric touches of her own and may have come up with some of the Minor Arcana scenes, but it's still apparent, again if we take Waite at his word, that it is Waite's deck, which Smith has illustrated.

So my question for you, Fulgour -- and I ask because I'm genuinely curious and I won't argue with whatever response you may make -- is, what evidence do you look to, or what leads you to believe, that Smith created the deck all by herself and Waite's involvement was only after the fact? I admit that the evidence for it being Waite's deck is not 100% ideal (a contemporary account by another person would make it stronger), but as far as I know there is no evidence to suggest that Waite's statements are untrue (and therefore no reason to assume they are untrue).

Thanks --
Lee

*

• ALONE

Alone, and in the midst of men.
Alone 'mid hills and valleys fair.
Alone, upon a ship at sea...
Alone ~ alone. And everywhere,
O many folk I see and know ~
So kind they are I scarce can tell.

But now alone, on land and sea,
In spite of all, I'm left to dwell.

In cities large ~ in country lane,
Around the world ~ 'tis all the same.

Across the sea, from shore to shore,
Alone ~ alone, for evermore...

• 
  pamela colman smith
  

*

Well, Fulgour, I don't consider that to be a serious answer to my respectfully-worded question, so, respectfully, I'm just going to assume that you're not interested in explaining your reasoning. And in the absence of any evidence indicating otherwise, my position remains the same.

-- Lee

Colman-Smith's poem and its context:

http://www.wicce.com/memoriam.html

I scarce can SAY

Wicce's is so helpful. Have you ever thought about this:
Pam chose to live in Cornwall, and stayed over 30 years
there ~ not bad for a single gal, moving to seaside Bude.

As for "dying penniless" and such, who's to say? She lived
exactly where, and just as she wished to. Goodbye, rat race.
And her grave ~ where is it... I think the locals have cared
enough to keep that private matter respectfully sacrosanct.