slowly starting to understand the thoth want to try something new

LRichard said:

The correct order of the Smith-Waite Centennial court is.....

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'Correct' solely within the context of the RWS? I'll leave that up to others to decide...

But it is very easy to understand once you've got a little bit of Qabalah (IHVH) and Golden Dawn symbolism under your belt. Problems seem to arise when someone comes to the Thoth after being exposed to 'popular' Tarot manuals where the explanation goes no deeper than Father = the old guy on the throne, and Son = the young guy on the horse.

While we're on the topic, the original Golden Dawn Book T lists all 78 cards in a specific order, but places the Major Arcana last: Aces first, then Courts, then Minors, then Majors. Why is this? I've always seen Majors come first.

I thought it might have something to do with the Minors being ordered by their decans, but I don't know much astrology.

A "system" may have arisen since Waite, but he himself wasn't espousing any sort of system when he made the switch; he simply lied. I can't fathom why the PKT would say one thing, and the cards themselves give hints as to the truth. Otherwise, why have salamanders and a lion on the King of Wands, showing both the "totem animal" for the element as well as astrological sign that dominates it?

Anyway, once you get the real order of the courts down it becomes easier. I would start with the majors in any case, and not to plan too much into the future. In the course of your studies you'll probably be diverted into other related topics, you might skip ahead or go back when you find connections between cards, etc.

Aeric said:

While we're on the topic, the original Golden Dawn Book T lists all 78 cards in a specific order, but places the Major Arcana last: Aces first, then Courts, then Minors, then Majors. Why is this? I've always seen Majors come first.

I thought it might have something to do with the Minors being ordered by their decans, but I don't know much astrology.

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I would guess it has something to do with Kabbalah. The Aces are the immobile essence of the suit, the courts are the forces the move it, the minors are way-stations while the majors are the influences running through the minors on the Tree of Life.

Aeon418 said:

'Correct' solely within the context of the RWS? I'll leave that up to others to decide.....

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The order (Knight Queen King Page) is correct intrinsically to the RWS. It is even hinted at in PKT (see attachment).

Thanks for all the awesome input very much appreciated. I will do my best to order the cards. I do also expect many diversions as I work my way through. I have a strong feeling this journal will be a mess.

Aeon418 said:

In what way?

One thing that seems to crop up time and again is confusion surrounding the Court cards. Instead of trying to get to grips with the Thoth Courts solely in the context of the Thoth system, some people bring preconceptions from other decks and impose them onto the Thoth Courts. The most common example is the confusion surrounding the RWS Kings and Knights versus the Thoth's Knight and Prince.

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I'm assuming in the way you meant when you posted.

The confusion probably arises from the idea of the Courts involving the linear four-step maturation of a single element in the given Suit (Squire trains to become a Knight, one day a King), where the Courts really represent combinations of four elemental aspects of the suit, a process of creation (Parents who make children).

Well, in any case the confusion about the Courts, and many other things, is usually temporary and once you get into the Thoth mindset, it becomes a lot easier. Many of the ideas expressed are connected, and so you fairly quickly build a set of tools that will allow you to, at the very least, approach different ideas and cards. Even before you go over the whole deck its language will become familiar.

Siochanai said:

I am not sure if the card order of the thoth has some major purpose or not. Hell I do not even remember the original order at this point.

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Yes it has a purpose and it is to be a teaching tool . Also I see more than ONE order possible ... IMO it is rare to find ONE only order or purpose that is right for all situations (except in religion )

Here are some I worked with ... I would find a big space and lay them out for contemplation ... or set the deck up in an order and draw the cards in order and look at them.

Tree of Life ; deal out Ace to 10 of Wands in the pattern of the Tree of Life, then overlay with the cups suit, then swords and pentacles. Lay the Majors on the paths between the numbers. Or do 1 suit on the Tree and the Majors on the paths, then pick up that suit and lay down the next one (while the majors stay there). Then add piles of the courts, in various positions (as Aeon pointed out above ... and other ways).

The Majors; lay them out via number, astrological order, planetary order .... later (if you really want to do your head in ) you can try constellational order and add the courts that relate to off ecliptic constellations (and The Universe seems a good fit for Ophiuchus ).

The Minors can be laid out in a wheel, positions 'in order' according to their astrological decanate position, but that is just 2 - 10 of each suit.

In the G.D. Book T there is the scheme mentioned above, but also in their writings; 'The Tree of Life Projected into a Sphere' - but that is bound to lead to trouble without certain basic understandings that might not be apparent at first ... and it appears faulty as a system to order cards by.

Or you could go the 'whole hog' and lay out your whole deck in a map of 'Life, the Universe and Everything' @ http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=124078&highlight=astro+layout 'Astro Tarot Spread'. - Note; not a 'reading' spread ... a way of ordering and laying out all the cards, for meditation and comprehension.)

And lastly (when you decide to go really nuts) you can cut the borders off and fit the cards together in that big painting Freida did .... before she cut it up into 78 little pictures