Pluto

tarotlyn

I have two VERY GOOD books to suggest on the subject of PLUTO, if anyone would
care to find them and read them:

1. 'Pluto or Minerva, the Choice is Yours' by Isabel M. Hickey and Bruce H. Altieri., 1973
EXCELLENT and VERY ACCURATE!!!

2. 'Pluto the Evolutionary Journey of the Soul' by Jeff Green, 1985, also EXCELLENT reading!

...please read these and then TEST how this info fits in your own charts...and other's you know...

:heart:

HUGS
tarotlyn

Barleywine

tarotlyn said:
I have two VERY GOOD books to suggest on the subject of PLUTO, if anyone would
care to find them and read them:

1. 'Pluto or Minerva, the Choice is Yours' by Isabel M. Hickey and Bruce H. Altieri., 1973
EXCELLENT and VERY ACCURATE!!!

2. 'Pluto the Evolutionary Journey of the Soul' by Jeff Green, 1985, also EXCELLENT reading!

...please read these and then TEST how this info fits in your own charts...and other's you know...

HUGS
tarotlyn

I pulled out my copy of Jeff Green's book as I was reading this thread and noticed for the first time that it's sub-titled "Volume 1." I don't recall there ever being a subsequent volume (but then I haven't been looking). After knocking around astrology for the better part of 40 years, I've finally come to appreciate the caveats in most of the standard astrological texts about Pluto and Neptune being principally "generational" planets without a lot to say on a personal level. I do use them in natal analysis as a vital part of constructing a psychological portrait, but have never noticed much effect in predictive work unless coupled with other concurrent planetary influences. Even then, at their rarefied "vibratory level" (for lack of a better analogy), I haven't seen much of an outward manifestation, whether transiting or being transitted. But I know many astrologers see it otherwise.

Minderwiz

Barleywine said:
I've finally come to appreciate the caveats in most of the standard astrological texts about Pluto and Neptune being principally "generational" planets without a lot to say on a personal level. I do use them in natal analysis as a vital part of constructing a psychological portrait, but have never noticed much effect in predictive work unless coupled with other concurrent planetary influences. Even then, at their rarefied "vibratory level" (for lack of a better analogy), I haven't seen much of an outward manifestation, whether transiting or being transitted. But I know many astrologers see it otherwise.

Yes, the 'generational level is often totally ignored by some Astrologers. To illustrate I ran the interpretation function of Solar Fire on my own chart where I have conjunctions between Mars and Pluto and Saturn and Pluto and got the following:

CONJUNCTION (Saturn) PLUTO Orb 2°08' Applying
You are resourceful and have a pool of enormous energy available when needed. You also have strong desires and a volcanic temper.

CONJUNCTION (Saturn) PLUTO Orb 6°18' Separating
You are an ambitious and powerful person. You are a powerful leader and must learn to use your unique insights for positive purposes.

Now these are clearly directed at me personally and these are so much not me, that I consulted my Ephemeris and using an 8 degree orb

The Mars/Pluto held for just over 30 days around my birth - so EVERYYONE in the world born over that period has a volcanic temper and a pool of enormous energy availalbe when needed.

The Saturn/Pluto conjunction was in effect for 20 months around my birth - so EVERYONE in the world born over these 20 months would be ambitious and powerful people and powerful leaders.

Now I think this actually says more about canned interpretations than it does about Pluto and also about 'silly' Astrologers, who include these sayings in 'personal' profiles, as the author of the interpretations clearly wrote without thinking about the real world. If it's going to be personal to me, then it has to apply to me and no, or few others.

I agree with you about those Pluto transits, etc - I've never found any 'Pluto' effect - though I suppose it's possible it provides some low level background 'radiation'. However that is a heretical statement for most Astrologers these days

To be fair to the author, when it comes to Pluto itself by sign, the 'generational' statement is included and there's no attempt to come up with an interpretation by sign. But it doesn't seem to cross the author's mind that he has actually ignored the 'generational' slow movement in his previous interpretations!

Incidentally, no such disclaimer is made for Chiron, where a clear interpretation is made by sign - and how long does Chiron spend in a sign?

That being said, Pluto is so much a part of the modern psychological approach that It's impossible to do a jungian (or freudian) psychological interpretation without it - unless the whole fabric of modern Astrology is torn down and the chances of that happening anytime soon are minimal.

Final heretical statement - there is psychology without Jung

Barleywine

Minderwiz said:
Final heretical statement - there is psychology without Jung

Haha! Well-said. I have any number of books from back in the '70s that explore the psychological approach to astrology (and even saw Marc Edmund Jones and Dane Rudhyar speak on the subject), and I would bet every one of those books is Jungian.

Barleywine

Minderwiz said:
Incidentally, no such disclaimer is made for Chiron, where a clear interpretation is made by sign - and how long does Chiron spend in a sign?

For me, asteroids are a whole 'nuther subject. I never really warmed up to them. The last time I saw Rob Hand speak, he said he doesn't use them "for reasons of economy" (along with a few other choice remarks about "traveling gravel"), and that's pretty much where I am. At the time he was just starting to gravitate back toward medieval astrology, so his outlook was consistent with that trend. At that time (1985), Hand said he was abandoning his book on chart synthesis (a pity!) but that he was working on a book to update Witte and Ebertin on mid-points. Did that ever see the light of day?

To get this back on topic, he did have a few things to say about Pluto (although they may very well be outdated at this point in time):

Pluto = penetrating into the inner depths of things

Saturn-Pluto contacts are compulsive and obsessive; order is paramount

Jupiter-Pluto contacts are psychologically-oriented; good for counseling, trans-personal therapy

"Generational" planets (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) in aspect with one another need "personal planet" contacts to make them "work" in a chart. Fast-moving planets or points tend to "personalize" the generational aspects.

The transcription of my extensive notes from that lecture is still a fascinating read, and much of it still stands up well.

dadsnook2000

Pluto -- limiting the irrevocable force

Hello, All.
I use Pluto in different ways. In a natal chart where it has aspectual contacts with middle and inner planets (Sun through Saturn) I tray to cast it as a generation trend within which the inner planets express it as a theme background. In a natal chart where it only contacts Uranus, Neptune (and somewhat weakly, Jupiter and Saturn) I often ignore it or downplay it greatly. If Pluto has no major aspets, I ignore it.

However, in cyclic charts such as a p.c. solar return or interim daily chart where the angles tell the story, Pluto at an angle with other planets at that/other angles is another whole story. Transformational change, pressure, power expressed by oneself or others, etc. can briefly come into play --- within the context of the natal chart and within the context of one's ongoing life-directions. Context is important. Seldom will big things happen for a couch-potatoe or one who does not have angular planets, oppositions, T-squares, etc. in their chart. So, Pluto is pretty much a mixed bag. Often it is out in space, at some points it sneaks its nose in under the tent, much as the unwanted camel does. Dave

Minderwiz

dadsnook2000 said:
Hello, All.
I use Pluto in different ways. In a natal chart where it has aspectual contacts with middle and inner planets (Sun through Saturn) I tray to cast it as a generation trend within which the inner planets express it as a theme background. In a natal chart where it only contacts Uranus, Neptune (and somewhat weakly, Jupiter and Saturn) I often ignore it or downplay it greatly. If Pluto has no major aspets, I ignore it.

That seems a very sensible approach - If I were a Pluto user I'd ignore my Pluto/Saturn Conjunction because it's a separating aspect of over 6 degrees, which I assume you would take as a weak contact.

When it comes to the Mars/Pluto aspect, it's applying and just over 2 degrees - Now it's not angular but I wonder if you would count that one, and how you'd give a generational slant to it (both are in Leo and in the twelfth). I don't have a volcanic temper - indeed I'm incredibly patient, and I think I've lost my temper twice in 63 years. Nor am I violent in any way - quite the reverse.

If I were a Pluto user I'd want to treat it in the same way that fixed stars are treated - by using an orb of one degree or less and only conjunctions, oppositions (and possibly squares and trines)

Dadsnook2000 said:
However, in cyclic charts such as a p.c. solar return or interim daily chart where the angles tell the story, Pluto at an angle with other planets at that/other angles is another whole story. Transformational change, pressure, power expressed by oneself or others, etc. can briefly come into play --- within the context of the natal chart and within the context of one's ongoing life-directions. Context is important. Seldom will big things happen for a couch-potatoe or one who does not have angular planets, oppositions, T-squares, etc. in their chart. So, Pluto is pretty much a mixed bag. Often it is out in space, at some points it sneaks its nose in under the tent, much as the unwanted camel does. Dave

LOL Whilst I don't do that myself, it certainly seems a sensible and careful approach again orb would be an important consideration here. Pluto's out in space in more senses than the obvious - it sometimes is out of the zodiac entirely, which kind of begs the question of it's relevance at those times. The use of fixed stars originally related to ones which were in the zodiac belt. However your apporach seems to be a lot more considered and tempered than many I've seen.

Barleywine said:
For me, asteroids are a whole 'nuther subject. I never really warmed up to them. The last time I saw Rob Hand speak, he said he doesn't use them "for reasons of economy" (along with a few other choice remarks about "traveling gravel"), and that's pretty much where I am. At the time he was just starting to gravitate back toward medieval astrology, so his outlook was consistent with that trend. At that time (1985), Hand said he was abandoning his book on chart synthesis (a pity!) but that he was working on a book to update Witte and Ebertin on mid-points. Did that ever see the light of day?

To get this back on topic, he did have a few things to say about Pluto (although they may very well be outdated at this point in time).....

I go along with the point on asteroids and centaurs (Chiron's classification), a view also held by Stephen Arroyo. Hand has actually taken up Hellenistic Astrology and published several pieces on that area.

You might find the following interview he did useful:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rhand.html

He does actually make several references to Pluto, including an attempt to categorise Pluto in the traditional way on the Hot/Cold, Dry/Moist axes. Whilst I remain unconvinced by his arguments (not least because there's still a remnant of modern Sun signs in there, it does represent a real attempt to deal with Pluto on Astrological rather than psychological or mythological bases.

He also makes some interesting points about Jung being in the tradition of medieval magicians - which might well upset some people, though again I think he's twisting things ever so slightly to make it work.

Hand's website is:

http://www.arhatmedia.com/newavailpub.htm

And lists his publications plus articles

Barleywine

Minderwiz said:
You might find the following interview he did useful:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rhand.html

Hand's website is:

http://www.arhatmedia.com/newavailpub.htm

And lists his publications plus articles

Wow, has he changed his tune! I will quote him from my 1985 lecture notes:

"I'm not into rulerships or essential dignities. I use the signs as little as possible, since I'm not wholly sold on the validity of the zodiac."

I didn't see any mention of a mid-point book on his website, but I do see that Planets in Transit has been expanded. Too bad I can't replace my 1976 cloth-bound edition with an expanded hardbound copy. It has gotten some hard use over the years.

Minderwiz

Barleywine said:
Wow, has he changed his tune! I will quote him from my 1985 lecture notes:

"I'm not into rulerships or essential dignities. I use the signs as little as possible, since I'm not wholly sold on the validity of the zodiac."

I didn't see any mention of a mid-point book on his website, but I do see that Planets in Transit has been expanded. Too bad I can't replace my 1976 cloth-bound edition with an expanded hardbound copy. It has gotten some hard use over the years.

Yes, I remember the shock too, when I joined the Astrological Association of Great Britain and happened to mention Planets in Transit, which at the time I used regularly. The response was along the lines of 'I think you'll find he no longer holds those views'.

At the time I was a bona fide Pluto user (Yes, honest, I was) but I was beginning to be sceptical about those modern signs, and in part, I think that's what he's referring to in the quote you gave. There's also a good article on his own site about the 'invariance of the tropical zodiac', so I think there was also some doubt on his part about the tropical/sidereal issue rendering the signs invalid.

dadsnook2000

For Minderwiz

Minderwiz, I don't have your chart data here in Maine where I'm vacationing. Like we tell others, its hard to make useful generalizations based on one factor -- such as Mars-Pluto -- without the whole chart and an understanding of how one feels they use these energies in the context of their life.

Perhaps you can IM your birth data and then I'll be happy to offer a comment. Understanding how these two do or do not work together in a chart can be enlightening to the 3% of us who may also have something similar in our charts. My Mars and Pluto are some 23 degrees apart, Mars being one part of a yod with Saturn as the focus and Venus- Mercury at the other point. Pluto has no major aspects and seldom seems to play any role in my chart. Dave