History of Ideas - the Hanged Man

Teheuti

It seems that a major turning point was deGebelin's belief that this card should be a virtue and not a vice. It seems to be supported by the serene face on the Visconti-Sforza card, so that the figure appears to transcend the actual circumstances (even though this serenity was ignored in the first several centuries).

Mary
 

Teheuti

Here's Bob O'Neill's account of the iconography from:

http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/hangedman

"Seeing the Hangedman image as representing punishment (secular or religious) does not consider the full complexity of the symbolism. The contrast between upright and inverted figures was not simply associated with punishment since both upright and inverted figures appear in Figures 9 and 12. In many accounts, sinners in hell will be turned upside down (Gorevich 1988). But in Late Medieval imagery and drama, the viewer knew that a significant transition had occurred when everything reversed – it was a kind of dramatic device to alert the viewer that they were now seeing action in the afterlife (Palmer 1992).

"The most important account of this inversion occurs at the end of Dante’s Inferno. Dante and his guide Virgil have descended into the depths of hell in an upright position. But at the bottom of hell, Dante is turned upside down and begins the ascension through Purgatory to Paradisio. To Dante, the inversion experience was a turning of values upside down – a conversion experience required for further progress. Thus, the later occultists interpretation of the Hangedman as a reversal of values and a pivotal experience was quite familiar to the 15th and 16th century card-player through Dante’s account."

It's obvious from the written accounts prior to 1781 that people tended to assume the most obvious explanation: punishment for treachery, and the desperation of the despised (lack of all hope). It seems to depict the "worst possible end" of which one is worthy. Still, even if 99.99% of people saw the card this way, O'Neill's comment indicates that other interpretations were possible. Could that have anything to do with why 15th century tarot artists always depicted a serene and youthful face (in contrast to the face on the lower figure in the Hope/Despair card)?
 

Rosanne

Hi Mary- I was just going to quote your Bob O'Neill's chapter from the other thread to ask something. Thanks for putting it here.
In the O'neill chapter he talks about all the different aspects that may have been thought about. My question is (and always has been for the History forum)
"What is Historical and what is not?"
For example I mentioned Saint Teresa of Avila and her mystical experiences that were very popular and well known in the 1500's. (This is just an example of what I am asking) It seems to me that her views and writings could well have been the stream of ideas that influenced later or so called 'occult' explanations of the card itself. So if that was the case, then it would seem to me that the 'occult' view has the same historical basis as for example, the shame paintings as a possibility. I for example, when looking at the Visconti card we call the Hanged Man- I see the type of thinking that is the same as now. This is some sort of mystical experience that would make one think of Odin. Or the mystical union that Teresa the Saint wrote about- illustrated by hanging upside down in her words and depicted by the Visconti card.
Now somehow one view is acceptable in the History forum and another is not.
I find it hard to make the distinction- as it is ideas that formed the actions that we now call History. We can trot out dry facts and figures and call it History (and of course it is) but somehow the life of what makes History is lost.
This is why I love your title 'History of ideas' it does not seem to have the same rigidity- that I am always diverting from when talking about Tarot History.
Can you say what you think is Historical and what is not?
Many thanks
~Rosanne
 

Teheuti

Rosanne said:
My question is (and always has been for the History forum) "What is Historical and what is not?" For example I mentioned Saint Teresa of Avila and her mystical experiences . . .
Rosanne - Actually, you're right. They should be considered, and I apologize for negating your idea.

Now the task is to show direct connections to a 16th century or later tarot commentator. Obviously St. Teresa was too late to have influenced the creator of the Tarot. Dante, for instance, was so well known that, primarily because of him, the dialect he used became the dominant "Italian" language and phrases from the Commedia became common expressions.

As I see it, in the history section you need a plausible story that includes facts that support your theory directly. So, can you show how St. Teresa's writing directly influenced one or more of the tarot commentators on the Hanged Man? Do her writings explain a definitive shift in meanings for the card? Do any statements about the Hanged Man appear as a direct (or near direct) quote from St.T? For instance, we can see clearly that Sir James Frazer's Golden Bough did so, since he is mentioned directly in Tarot texts.

The history of ideas can include lies, made up stuff, and wild speculations if they influenced a trend or further ideas on the subject.

In terms of a more general history of ideas you could certainly show where St. T's ideas fell in the broad spectrum of ideas about "upside down suspension as solitude" but I don't even know where this specific theme intersects with given meanings of the Hanged Man card since solitude is usually reserved for the Hermit or later High Priestess.

Mary
 

Teheuti

BTW, I'm not at all adverse to anyone arguing that the V-S Hanged Man does not look serene or to anything else I've said. I regularly say things that are not justifiable. I need to be called to account or be asked to support what I've said.

Mary
 

jmd

The "history of ideas" includes, I would suggest, acts that were common enough in one's surroundings - including (given the hanged man topic) the usage of such for either minor offence (when left hanging from a small tree branch with torso partially on the ground) to acts of torture (which were in former times deemed essential for an admission of guilt to be considered acceptable), religiously motivated executions (such as the all too frequent Jewish hangings), and executions by exposure outside town limits.

As such, some of the important omissions in Teheuti's earlier post include the various dates of imagery shown by mjhurst and others.

With regards to St Teresa, I would personally hope that it is entirely apt and acceptable to have in a discussion forum not only completed inquiries, but suggestions and reflections of the nature: "St Teresa of Avilla talks of mystical experiences in a manner that calls to mind the hanged man - what possible or plausible connection may this have had on the early development of this figure within tarot? Were her views sufficiently known at the time?"

For myself at any rate, such intrusions become seeds of discovery that may lead us into deadends or into avenues that have nought to do with tarot... or, inexplicably (and then transformed to obvious) into finds that shows intrinsic links that (for example in this instance) may even have permitted an understanding of the figure in former times that we currently assume far fetched.

I perhaps should add that I personally do not consider St Teresa's mystical experiential descriptions as influential on either tarot development nor on its early understanding of the imagery - reversed hangings being just too common... it does, however, suggest that given the prevalence of torture, hangings, and the like, 'mystical' or transcended states may similarly have been far more common than we may perhaps credit, and that though the hanged man may at face value be reflective of an abominable atrocity, may also call to mind of those of the period (who survived such) remembrances of transcended (or mystical) states when caused to suffer in extreme conditions.

This is where, for example, considerations of St Teresa (and others) broaden understanding of both the period, but also both the mind-state common enough, and the likely lived scenarios of myriad individuals.
 

Teheuti

jmd said:
As such, some of the important omissions in Teheuti's earlier post include the various dates of imagery shown by mjhurst and others.
I'll add a link to that thread. Some of this is included in the various essays cited at the end of the summary post.
 

jmd

1949 - Paul Marteau Le Tarot de Marseille, pp53 - 55 (rather quick translation that may need improvement)
"... The number 12 implies a renunciation so that a re-commencement, if there is one, is not encumbered by the work of the previous cycle"... "The 22 major sheets [Lames] of Tarot are, in effect, formed from two cycles: 12 + 10." ... "This card [lame] signifies a stop or suspension [ie, pause] in the evolutionary work of Man. The representation of this suspension by a reversed man indicates that what is on high is as that which is low [ie, 'that which is above is like that which is below'], and that all acts of man on the material plane ['plan' implies, in the context, both 'plane' and 'plan' or 'blueprint'] are reflected in the spiritual one." ... "In summary, [...] 'Le Pendu' represents Man inversing his action in order to orient it towards the spiritual with a feeling of awaiting and of abnegation".​
 

Rosanne

Ahh Thank you! I was using Saint T. as an example, I did not think you negated the idea Mary- it was a wild card anyway. Mystical writings were very common, for those that could afford them- but not so wide spread as Dante and the like.
This just illustrated what I was clumsy in articulating. jmd gave a very good answer as well - thank you. The secular history of the Italians (for want of a better term for those people of the time), is a lot more prevalent than I realised. I have just finished reading about Cosimo Di Medici in one of Dale Kent's books of the Renaissance- and he talks about the thousands of notebooks that are in the Florence museums- that cover an amazing variety of subjects and how passionate they were about what we would call now 'scrapbooking'. He specifically mentions the vast amounts of notebooks written in the 1400's by people in prison to while away the time and as he suspects- so that the families do not lose their History when the prisoner died. Some describe what will happen to themselves in drawings and words (mostly in good hand, which indicates education.)
Others are very personal- like Lorenzo Medici's notebook and drawings of Dante's Divine Comedy or a housewife giving family history or stories illustrated like Aesop's Fables etc. Dale Kent suggests for Historical fact, these notebooks are a valuable resource that is ignored by research and is far more telling than Civil record. For example much of what is known about the parades and the songs that went with each float comes from these notebooks.
Now to the Hanged Man.
One notebook by a wine merchant written in and illustrated (not shown in the book) over some 30 years is all about the ceremonies surrounding the hanging of effigies of known men for crimes of fraud. It seems like they had a day for this- like here in New Zealand in small towns we have 'Thursday Court day' when the locals go before the judge for whatever charge- and all of us know that if we drive by the Court on Thursday we will see hanging around outside ( :D ) who is up on charges. This wine merchant was just such a nosey parker; possibly for his business- who not to sell wine to.
Unfortunately the name of the codex or notebook is not written by the example- shame on Dale Kent! So it seems these hangings, in this case were for crimes when they did not have the prisoner or that he was not going to be actually hung- but shamed as if hung. That might explain the calmness on the face of the Visconti Hanged Man.
~Rosanne
 

Debra

Rosanne I just want to say that the breadth of your interests and the creativity of the connections you make I find astounding and wonderful.