Julian Assange - Friend or Foe?

Kibeth

Thought this one deserves a separate thread on its own. This seems a good place to start from my previous thread. So I repost this.

What I would like to understand is what on Assange's chart makes him intellectually superior to 99% of the world (he's a a hacker). The government systems he's invaded are undoubtedly one of the best protected in the world. And what makes him an ethical one (most hackers will destroy the systems they invade without a second thought, but not Assange). He is a maverick for sure. What makes him move to the beat of a different drum from others? If his chart shows signs of insanity (afflicted Saturn for instance)? He's a fascinating character and nowhere near repulsive, personally.

So Julian Assange, is he a friend or a foe?

Townsville 6 Australia 07/03/1971 14:05

^ His birthtime is anyone's guess, but I'll take this one.

Toss your ideas, guys!! GOGO!
 

Minderwiz

Assange's Chart

Well he's certainly in the news - using the date and time quoted by Kibeth which is also listed by The Mountain Astrologer and used on Skyscript gives rise to the attached chart.

If anyone has seen a confirmed time or knows of a better candidate perhaps they'd post it here.

I've included the outer planets and Chiron for those that use them. If anyone wishes to know the positions of any asteroids, I'll post them.

Perhaps Kibeth should have the honour of going first and then I'll make some observations.
 

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MantraTarot

Kibeth said:
What I would like to understand is what on Assange's chart makes him intellectually superior to 99% of the world (he's a a hacker).

i'm still trying to learn astrology, so i really can't comment, but i had to chime in and say, anyone who can hack is friggin' sexy as all get out. although, he reminds me of mr. humphries (john inman) from ARE YOU BEING SERVED? that could be a good thing, i think....

anyway, i look forward to what everyone sees for him... i find him quite fascinating.
 

Minderwiz

Cautionary Note

Before I give my views on the chart I need to raise an issue that has cropped up in the other thread that relates to Julian Assange.

For any natal interpretation we need to have some faith that the chart is actually radical - it is what it purports to be.

Astrologers all over the World have been scrambling for his natal details. Those given by Kibeth and myself are taken from The Mountain Astrologer's blog and have been widely used by others. However the time is based on an anonymous leak claiming to have access to his birth records. Doubts have been raised over this.

Even the date is not confirmed, it seems to be based on reports of the content of the International Arrest Warrant, but as yet I've not found any corroborative evidence.

Dave used a different date in his analysis, in the Grand Cross thread - I have no way of knowing whether his date is more authentic than the claim of 3rd July. Up to the time of writing, Dave has not supplied a source for his data, despite asking and he does use a time of 14:05 (2:05 pm) which is the same as TMA's and as he used 23rd July there must be a chance he either misread or mistyped the TMA details . That's a common error and I've made it myself plenty of times. However until he confirms it was an error or comes up with a source for those details we have to suspend judgement.

So at the moment we have to treat the natal details with a great deal of care and I'll read the chart as a possible natal rather than a confirmed natal.

For those interested the TMA blog makes interesting reading. Look out especially for posts from 'Sy' who is a local Astrologer interested in the Queensland records and systems.

http://mountainastrologer.com/tma/birth-time-for-julian-assange#comments
 

Minderwiz

Addendum

I've just heard from a friend in the US who saw the arrest warrant on TV last night (her time) and confirms that the warrant gives a birth date of 3rd July 1971.

So unless Interpol has made a serious error (which would then have real legal repercussions, as the warrant could be challenged on the basis that Assange is not the named person) we have a date. The remaining speculation relates to birth time, as, according to Sy on the TMA thread, there is no recording of the time on the birth certificate in Australia (anywhere) and entries on the register do not include birth time either.

I will read the chart on the basis that the day is right but the time is speculative.

Edited to add

I've tracked down the document and it's actually an Interpol Wanted Notice -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/nov/30/interpol-wanted-notice-julian-assange

The arrest warrant is a European Arrest Warrant and I don't know whether it refers to his natal details in any way
 

Minderwiz

Cautious reading for Julian Assange

I've already qualified my reading to encompass doubt over the birth time. If I had the time I would then do some predictions using the natal chart and see if they were consistent with events in his life - a lack of predictive ability would lead me to either reject the chart or attempt to rectify it. With that in mind let's look at the chart.

I take a traditional approach, so I will be ignoring the outer planets and there will be no 'psychobabble' about Assange's possible inner turmoils. There will be some psychology though - please remember that modern psychological personality and educational tests, such as Myers/Briggs are rooted in the classic - four humours (if subconsciously so :)

The first step is to assess his temperament - this involves examining his Ascendent, its sign, ruler and Almuten (planet with the most essential dignity at the AScendant) - There are a number of ways of doing this - for simplicity I'll keep to a nice scoring system used by Dorian Greenbaum. So we have a Scorpio Ascendant - The sign is in the water triplicity so it's Phlegmatic. The sign scores 2 on the simple scale

The Ascendant ruler is Mars and the almuten is also Mars - Mars is a Choleric or firy planet - ruler and almuten score one each - so score two to Choleric

We next look at the Moon. This too is in Scorpio. The Moon sign scores 2 for Phlegmatic.

The Moon ruler is Mars - score 1 to Choleric. The next Moon feature we look at is it's relationship to the Sun in terms of Moon phase. The Moon has moved past the first quarter but is well short of Full (it's actually trine to the Sun) - the second quarter is classed as Choleric. So score another 1 to Choleric. So looking at the Ascendant and Moon gives us an equal split between Phlegmatic and Choleric.

The last thing to look at is the Sun.This scores not through it's sign - that is immaterial on assessing the Sun (so much for Sun signs) - Like the Moon it's assessed in terms of its cycle. The Sun's cycle is it's path around the ecliptic and more particularly its place relative to the equinoxes and solstices - the season of the year. 3 July is past the Summer solstice - it's a Summer birth and Summer is Choleric - the Sun scores another 2 points to Choleric.

That gives us a temperament which is 60/40 Choleric/Phlegmatic one.

Any modern Astrologer would recognise the contrast between Fire and Water.

Using Greenbaum's short keys we get someone who:

Enjoys living in the limelight but needs to have a very private retreat to recharge his batteries.

Has very productive and very lazy periods

Does not seize on instant solutions to problems but spends time in reflection and calm deliberation.

Secretly enjoys a good fight (or at least thinks it's a secret he enjoys it)

Fights for what they believe in with enormous tenacity

Is very much an all or nothing person - there's no middle ground.

I did a second assessment using Lilly's more elaborate system and got basically the same results. This person is Choleric/Phlegmatic.

The next step is an assessment of mind and manners (how he/she behaves)

The mind (wit and understanding according to Lilly) is assessed mainly through Mercury and the Moon. Mercury governs the rational, logical processes, the Moon governs the 'animal' or innate or reactive mind.

Mercury is peregrine in this chart, placed in Cancer - so essentially it's not strong. However it is free from combustion, (which alone wipes out being peregrine) it is in the ninth, not a bad placement, occidental (seen after sunset) swift in motion, trines Jupiter (though not a partile aspect) and in an applying sextile to Saturn in Gemini (giving it dignity as the Air Triplicity ruler). Although the last two conditions don't score on Lilly's scale, they do show some mental discipline and arguably to have big ideas.

The Moon is in Scorpio, where she is in Fall though she has a very minor mutual reception with Mars, the Ascendant ruler. The Moon is nowhere near as well placed as Mercury - she is in the twelfth (the classic behind the scenes position), slow in motion but is increasing in light. The Moon trines the Sun and is also the Sun's dispositor. The Sun rules the MC, and The Moon squares the MC. So instinct, and reactive mind are going to be intertwined with career and making his mark on society - a love hate relationship with that career but ultimately controlling. We can return to that later on.

His instincts are not as sharp as his rational mind and that will dominate - this might work most of the time but he's likely to follow logic even when his instincts should warn him something's wrong. Reason dominates.

The significator of manners - the overall outward behaviour, is the planet (or planets in the first) - in this case we have Jupiter. Jupiter is in the last few degrees of Scorpio and is retrograde. Both are not good indicators of Jupiter's strength. Jupiter is oriental which gives it some strength back but it is slow - so overall Jupiter is weak. This might suggest according to Lilly that he is hypocritically religious (belief in freedom of information?) tenacious, still in maintaining false tenets (positions) suffers everyone to cozen him (cozen= trick or deceive) ignorant, careless, nothing delightful in the love of his friends, of a gross dull capacity, schismatical (causing divisions or separations) and lowering himself in all companies, crouching and stooping when there is no need to do so.

Now for religion one might substitute politics, or political views in a modern context and the latter part might suggest he keeps his head down and tries to hide, even when there is no need.

We might need to reflect on some of those characteristics and ask whether and to what extent any of them apply.

It's also worth noting that Jupiter trines Mercury and squares Mars in mutually applying aspects. Mercury as we have noted rules the Rational Mind, Mars is the Ascendant ruler. Though not very strong these aspects are strong enough to take note of.

Jupiter is also in a separating opposition with Saturn, though it is an opposition that was never perfected, Jupiter turning retrograde before it could complete the opposition, so we need to take care in interpreting it, when we get to it. A standard view, in both the tradition and modern approaches is that Saturn would have been a restraining influence preventing Jupiter becoming too outwardly dominant (in the sense of being easily identified in it's influence). Saturn is the stronger of the two planets, so Jupiter is likely to have less influence for good here, than Saturn has influence for harm. That needs to be tempered with the realisation that the opposition 'never was' it's some influence but not as strong as we might have treated it.

I'll have a look at the career/public role next as that is the one that is currently being focused on, if this is Assange. Any comments or questions on what I have said so far would be welcomed.
 

dadsnook2000

Data now posted on Astrodatabank

Astrodatabank now has the available information on Julian Assange posted.

Using the 2:05 PM time given for July 3, 1971, the chart can be relocated:

For LONDON, MC = 10:05 Pisces, ASC = 12:32 Cancer.
For STOCKHOLM, MC = 29:49 Pisces, ASC = 3:45 Leo.

The London location places the Sun 10:36 Cancer just above the Asc., the Moon in the 5th at 7:15 Scorpio.

The Stockholm location places the Sun in the 12th, 23 degrees above the Asc., the Moon remains in the 5th house.

The Australian location had Sun in the 9th, Moon in the 12th 10 degrees above the Asc.

Dave
 

Astraea

The Rodden rating on Astrodatabank's site is C, meaning "Caution, no source."
 

Minderwiz

A further note on caution in Astrology

dadsnook2000 said:
Astrodatabank now has the available information on Julian Assange posted.

Using the 2:05 PM time given for July 3, 1971, the chart can be relocated:

For LONDON, MC = 10:05 Pisces, ASC = 12:32 Cancer.
For STOCKHOLM, MC = 29:49 Pisces, ASC = 3:45 Leo.

The London location places the Sun 10:36 Cancer just above the Asc., the Moon in the 5th at 7:15 Scorpio.

The Stockholm location places the Sun in the 12th, 23 degrees above the Asc., the Moon remains in the 5th house.

The Australian location had Sun in the 9th, Moon in the 12th 10 degrees above the Asc.

Dave

Astrea said:
The Rodden rating on Astrodatabank's site is C, meaning "Caution, no source."

Thank you Dave and Astraea for helping stress the importance of checking the validity of the charts we use. Astrobank is a very useful source of information and the Rodden ratings are a good guide to how reliable the data is.

The Guardian article quoted earlier in the thread, shows that the date of birth has been publically known since 30th November, the TMA blog on the time of birth is dated 7th December - so virtually all charts cast for Assange since then have used this date and time and any astrologer looking for data can easily find them. However having found them there is that all important question - Is this data reliable?

If we believe that the time is totally spurious we would cast either a sunrise chart or a noon chart and provide a very limited assessment until such time as reliable data is provided. In this case the TMA blog seemed to give at least a reasonable chance of being correct. The source has not yet been shown to be spurious but as we have said it needs to be treated with caution.

Showing or providing the data on which our charts are based is done so that others can check and research. I don't know about others here but I've made mistakes quite often on data entry, such as entering an AM time as PM or vice versa, or getting the day or month wrong, especially with data quoted in US format of MM/DD/YYYY and one or two of those charts have even made it through to here! If I realise I've made an error, I go back and correct it or if it's pointed out I thank the vigilant reader. Even the very best Astrologer make errors, they are only human - admitting it and using it to teach students the importance of those all important checks both on the source and the chart produced against the data used (or should have been used) is a great exercise.

Well my next post will be on the career/social standing and role of our native. Hopefully others will then take up the thread either with questions or giving their own views. Especially as I have left out the outer planets.
 

Astraea

Minderwiz said:
In this case the TMA blog seemed to give at least a reasonable chance of being correct. The source has not yet been shown to be spurious but as we have said it needs to be treated with caution.

Showing or providing the data on which our charts are based is done so that others can check and research. I don't know about others here but I've made mistakes quite often on data entry, such as entering an AM time as PM or vice versa, or getting the day or month wrong, especially with data quoted in US format of MM/DD/YYYY and one or two of those charts have even made it through to here! If I realise I've made an error, I go back and correct it or if it's pointed out I thank the vigilant reader. Even the very best Astrologer make errors, they are only human - admitting it and using it to teach students the importance of those all important checks both on the source and the chart produced against the data used (or should have been used) is a great exercise.
Yes, indeed. It is so easy to make a mistake - even when we think we are being vigilant - that there is a horary warning about it: if Saturn is in the 7th house of a horary chart (and is not a specific significator with reference to the question), the astrologer is likely to have made a mistake, or will be prone to judge the chart erroneously. If we really want to do good astrology, we will gladly recognize, acknowledge and correct our errors, so that our judgements will more closely align with multileveled reality and others - whether clients, or astrologers using our work in their own research - will not unwittingly be led into irrelevant byways.

In the case of Assange's data, having read through TMA's very informative blog, I am inclined to believe that the source is reliable; but belief isn't evidence. And evidence isn't proof - the fact that a time might be clearly stated on a birth certificate doesn't prove that the birth occurred when the certificate says it did, since the recorder might have made a mistake. But a stated time is evidence that we're on the right track. The late Lois Rodden did astrologers a great service by devising a data rating system that can give us some idea of how solid or how questionable our data are. AA data can be wrong, but at least they come from a birth certificate or oral statement of the person in question and are more likely to be correct than not; C data is iffy because the source is not identified, and DD means that the data are in serious question.

So with Assange, we are still looking at a speculative chart, as Minderwiz has clearly stated. Later, if the reliability of Assange's data becomes clearer, or if Assange's mother speaks to the issue, we can delve deeper into such time-specific issues as angles and personal points.

One of the most interesting things about astrological interpretation is that it is most accurate, and affords the greatest opportunity for informed intuition to soar, when charts are solidly grounded in good data - giving our analyses a proper "launching pad."