Temperance

nisaba

Parzival said:
You are invisible about the original emptiness/space in the Visconti Sforza Temperance card.. I accept your reference to which way the waters might flow, but there were no waters there to go anywhere in the first painting. What was this about? Hmm...
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And have you noticed that in the Visconti-Sforza there are multiple cards (including Temperance) who are standing at a cliff-edge, but in more modern decks from the Marseille era to today, they have been reduced to only the Fool? I did a count once, years ago, I think it was around twenty, give or take a few. Many Major Arcana, and a few courts as well, from memory.
 

kwaw

nisaba said:
What interests me at least as much is from later "early" decks, the Marseille decks onwards, the flow has never been realistic, the water has never dropped as it actually does given the force of gravity, but has a trajectory that works neither for flowing water being poured, nor for water being thrown. In crude woodcut Marseille decks, that could be attributed to the difficulty of the medium or just poor draughtsmanship, but why have later artists by-and-large followed that style? What are they saying? Are the events happening in that card operating in impossible dreamspace rather than "real life" (whatever that is)? Are we to notice the dissonance of the impossible flow and be jerked out of normal consciousness by it, much as a shaman is jerked out of this world by a sudden change or stopping of his apprentice's drumming?
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She comes after Death in TdM style orders, and the afterlife could I suppose be reckoned as some sort of astral realm or dreamspace, or domain of the shaman. Given wings she becomes one of two angels (with the Devil) that come after death - one on the side of virtue and reward, the other on the side of vice and punishment. The fluids between her jars defy natural order as you say, as if to show we have now left the natural word and entered into supernatural space - from the sesual world of the visible world to the invisible. One might apply that to the invisibility of the fluids in the VS, but the VS doesn't have wings, and most likely did not follow death, but as with other early orders, followed the Pope:

6 Temperance
7 Chariot
8 Lovers
9 Fortitude
 

Parzival

nisaba said:
And have you noticed that in the Visconti-Sforza there are multiple cards (including Temperance) who are standing at a cliff-edge, but in more modern decks from the Marseille era to today, they have been reduced to only the Fool? I did a count once, years ago, I think it was around twenty, give or take a few. Many Major Arcana, and a few courts as well, from memory.
Click to expand...

Great observation. The landscape of the Visconti Temperance has two green hills left and right of the Lady's lower legs, as she stands on a green plain just before a cliff edge. She is between the hills behind her and the cliff before her-- lots of middle-ness or between-ness in this painting, however one might see it and interpret it.
And when the "flow" appears in the Marseille, as you insightfully point to Nisaba, it really does have that non-realistic quality, but like quicksilver rippling sideways.
 

JylliM

Parzival said:
You are invisible about the original emptiness/space in the Visconti Sforza Temperance card.. I accept your reference to which way the waters might flow, but there were no waters there to go anywhere in the first painting. What was this about? Hmm...
Click to expand...

My eyes aren't as good as they used to be, but with my reading glasses on I think I can see a dark smudgy line going between the two vessels in the Visconti-Sforza. It's easiest to see right below the lip of the top vessel.

I'm far from being a scholar of such matters, but it occurs to me that there is significance in the sideways flow of water, given that the other card depicting liquid being poured from vessels has it flowing downwards with gravity.
 

Abrac

Yes I see it too. Looks like something dark being poured but it hasn't reached the lower pitcher. :)
 

JylliM

I may well be seeing things but I think it might continue down to the other pitcher but it's very very light. Maybe the paint has faded over time.
 

Abrac

I made a large scan and you're absolutely right. It goes all the way down. Nice catch! :thumbsup:

VS Temperance 1.24mb
 

kwaw

Abrac said:
I made a large scan and you're absolutely right. It goes all the way down. Nice catch! :thumbsup:

VS Temperance 1.24mb
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Yes, I thought so too, but wasn't quite sure (see post 43); I have three different reproductions, and thought there was a hint of something on all of them.
 
16th and 17th century french regulations on playing cards. just a little bit of Marseille fun