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Re: More on Moon, Devil and Sexuality


Quote:
Originally posted by Elentir
OK, I'll stop holding forth now. Sorry, I do tend to go on and on...
Please don't apologize! I enjoyed your comments very much and look forward to more.

-- Lee
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Cool My Gemini Tendencies


Thank you, Lee! My Mars and Mercury in Gemini thank you, too. I will blather on to my heart's content!
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Wink Arrgh- I hate Geminis


- But I like your answer and so I don't think, there's any reason to apologize! - But there's a whole lot to think about...

I especially enjoyed the expression "nymph-chasnig"- made me laugh! And as most male human beings are proud on their sex-drive, I don't think you have to apologize for sexism either

Anyway, I can still see much more hedonism in, for example, the Nine of Cups, than in the devil. But that's probably because of my decks and because it was never suggested to me in readings. And because I was so afraid of evil and especially the devil as a child- I'm still carrying that around, I'm afraid. Anyway, I'll keep my eyes open for that aspect.

Something else jumped at me, when you compared Devil and Lovers: the elements of design they have in common- and with The Moon, too. In the Moon, there are the dog and the wolf- the tame and the wild animal, men's friend and foe- and in some way, again the female and male principle. This time, they are "blessed" by neither angel nor devil, but by the moon- and it's some strange blessing that makes them howl with a foreign longing... For what? Clarity? Wholeness? Or again: sex *g*

I think the association of gay sexuality with hedonism dates from m/m-sex being considered as decadently redundant, not aiming to reproduction. And because it traces back to the Romans and Greeks in their prime time- when they are connected to decadence in our minds, too. I'd be interested in your views, Elentir, but I'm not sure if we shouldn't pm on this, maybe it leads a little too far off topic!? I don't know.

I loved the association you made, whether by chance or not, between "cast out of the ivory tower" and the Tarot Tower. I never made it either, but it says something to me I cannot yet discern.
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And now you probably all know WHY I dislike Geminis- cause I have the same tendencies- if only in the matter of proliferation

I wanted to introduce another card in the discussion. As the Lovers already turned up, the 2 of Cups of the Gay Tarot is very interesting, too, I think. As so many cards of this deck...

A man in the clothes of an bushido-student is standing in font of a mirror and tentatively reaches out for his reflection. What strikes me is his shadow: it doesn't behave like normal shadows, having the shape of the whole person that casts it but is only half- reaching from the man's toes to the mirror and the same thing on the other side of the mirror. Where is the head of the shadow? Do the two shadows merge where am and reflection cannot? And what does this mean? It has some lunar quality about, too, I think

But the symbolism of the picture is enough to discuss even if you leave the shadow aside. Two persons of the RWS have become one person and his reflection. That makes it a card of loving yourself, I think, and of the perfect lover being a good mirror and matching you. The old thesis that homosexuality derives from narcissm comes to my mind, too, but I hope that's obsolete by now. - Beware, there are still Freudians out there

As the whole deck is about accepting your feelings and respecting them and the feelings of others, my preferred interpretation would be reaching out for your own love. Taking responsibilty for your own actions nad care for yourself- in spite of your darker sides.

That's my interpretation, looking forward to read yours!
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Is this getting a monologue?

I hope it is not

This time I just wanted to say that I will post evey card separately from now on, it's getting a little confusing here, I think. It's a pity for the connections we made, but I think it will be possible to make them between threads, too
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Talking The Devil, Hedonism, and Gay Sexuality


OK, I can't stop, I just realized I didn't respond to Telcontar's OTHER post about the Devil and all that. I will TRY to be briefer. But my dissertation in grad school (had I actually written it, that is) was going to be about male sexuality as portrayed in Roman poetry of the first century BCE-- so I have lots and lots I could say about it! (It was also about self-awareness and self-identity, so that's why the mirror thing from the other post was big with me, too. )

If this is too far off topic, so be it!

You are right on about hedonism being associated with nonreproductive sex, thus becoming pleasure for pleasure's sake. But it also has to do with Greco-Roman sexist (i.e., patriarchal) society and their view of women. Preoccupation with pleasure was often seen as a sign of femininity, softness, and especially passivity. Their concept of sex was very focused on who was top and who was bottom. The bottom role was "naturally" assigned to women, slaves, and pubescent men. In their culture, these three categories were generally conflated into one category, sexually speaking (with women being the sort of "ur" category). Sex was also often a form of punishment, abuse, or subordination as much as for reproduction or pleasure. A man being penetrated by another man was seen as the ultimate humiliation, but the penetrator suffered no stigma whatsoever.

Thus, for a man to WANT to be the passive partner, that was practically unthinkable! It was considered to be the ultimate in soft, unmanly, feminine behavior, and because of the association of pleasure with women, they were seen as people afflicted with hedonistic appetites that went far beyond what was normal or decent (sort of like, being a man isn't enough for them, they have to be women, too!). In all fairness, a "straight" man who did nothing but have sex with women all the time would have been considered "queer" in much the same way. As I recall in reading in some book or other on this topic, even in our own culture, a guy who wants to have sex all the time is less "manly" than a guy who wants to play football all the time.

I like your connection with the Moon and the Lovers/Devil. It's like the dog and the wolf of the Moon are the "dreamworld" versions of the man and woman of the other two cards. And I think of the howling as the fact that, while one is wild and the other is domesticated, they both share a common "longing" as you put it, or share a common past, a common memory, and a common instinct. Seems there is way more sexuality in the Moon card than I ever thought before!

So much for brevity.
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Why haven't you written this PhD!? Sounds much more interesting than anything I could have done. With such a topic I might even have started But I wonder that your father approved of it. Or he is REALLY some kind of lost twin of my dad- "It doesn't matter what you write about- BUT DO IT, PLEASE!" *lol*

I read a lot of what you posted in a "special" history book recently- but I didn't actively remember. A little revision didn't harm.

I always understood wanting sex the whole day as very manly, though Is it not part of the stereotype that men think about sex every three minutes? As long as they don't think of sex with other men that's as manly as football, isn't it?

Maybe I can determine a difference between the sexuality of devil and moon after you post... Maybe the moon's sexuality is a more passiv one, an attitude of letting it happen, when it is coming over you (from the outside or from within) and letting go when it is not. While the devil stands for some kind of obsession by it. Or for violence masked as sexuality. For something you don't really feel comfortable with.

That makes me realize something about my relationship to the moon: I never felt well about it being connected with madness. It's just a madness other people see, I think. Of course it can mean following illusions you would not fall for in the bright light of day. But it really releases things from WITHIN. You may seem crazy to other people- but just because you follow your inner voice. Whoever is talking there
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Thumbs up


I think your thoughts on the Moon and sexuality are very appropriate. I always associate the Moon with dreams and the unconscious, both of which imply passivity because the conscious mind is no longer exerting control-- it has "let go" for a while. Likewise with the association of the Moon with intuition and "feeling" your way (which I guess the guys in the Gay Tarot Moon card are pretty much doing... ) Also, I think the Moon suggests more secretive, private, and intimate moments that take place in dark, quiet places; the corresponding Sun card, for instance, might more likely have the two of them at the beach! And as far as the Devil is concerned, I think any form of sexuality that is self-destructive or harmful would fall under his domain.

It's true, my dad didn't really care much for my dissertation topic; in fact, I don't think he really knew what my dissertation topic was (he was still trying to get over my being in the humanities rather then math and science).

As for the "sex vs. football" question, I had thought the exact same thing. But the social "rules" of masculinity suggest that a man should not choose sexual pleasure over his buddies, and the ability to restrain oneself or abstain from sexual pleasure would of course be considered a "manly" thing to do since it requires a "manly man's" strength and will power. Speaking in the most extreme sense, of course, sexual pleasure is seen as nothing more than a commodity or a luxury, totally subordinated to male group loyalty. And likewise because the sexual activity would (typically, at least!) take place without the rest of the group present... therefore it can't be that important, can it? To this day, obsession with pleasure is associated with the feminine. I also think of various films and whatnot where a guy meets a girl and then his best friend is all jealous, although the friend would not, of course, think of it in homoerotic terms. It's all definitely very ironic.
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My deck arrived two days ago! Just to say Hi to everyone and I'm looking forward to joining the discussion !
Chris. xx
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Welcome, Chris :)


It's nice to have fresh blood here - without wanting to say I haven't enjoyed the other's company so far.

Have you seen there is already another thread on the Two of Cups? Of course you can start threads on cards you want to discuss, too. If there are ten threads and 100 posts, we could get our own forum, if there is still enough interest in it to justify this. But I think there will be

@Elentir: you brought up a funny thing: jealousy of friends towards a partner. I always disliked people completely lost in a couple, when you cand only say "JohnandBill" or "ShirleyandRhonda" or, to be pc, "KevinandSamantha" and there are no distinct individuals any more, instead of ganining a new friend in the friends spouse you lose him/her because they seem to share ONE character instead of each owning their own. *shudder* THAT is betraying loyalty.

Gay sex is probably even worse cause the friends of a man don't want to hear anything about his adventures- other than a heterosexual experience that might be discussed and thus shared by the peer group... So it somehow always falls under the classical Devil- secluding you from the others!?

When you mentioned a film where a friend gets jealous, I was at once thinking of Chasing Amy. Did you think of that, too?

Now I'm completely at a loss which card I should post next. Your post suggests both- The Sun as well as the Five of Wands and Lee's post suggests Fool and Judgement ...
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