Decans

sapienza

So....I'm wondering if we can talk about Decans???

I was reading an old thread and will quote here some of Scion's wise words to get started (hope that's ok):

Scion said:
The funny thing is, the more I actually take apart the astrological gears the more I respect the symmetry and coherence of the Decan symbolism. Granted, this may be because I'm a nutjob who's spent way too much time mulling over Liber T... not to mention traditional astrology texts. But the more I look, the more I think astrology isn't as minor as the popular books would have it. The trouble is, nobody is doing the research.
Scion said:
The Decans are old. The magickal images from which Mathers derived the GD pip meanings predate hermetic QBLH by well over a 1000 years and were so revered that their elaborate depictions and original Egyptian names survived in mangled form over the centuries. Imagine! That's not even a BS New Age speculation; that's astrological history. I say that not to confer some kind of antiquity onto the Tarot, but rather to identify a legitimate tradition that has gotten VERY short shrift because of patchy, reflexive research and aquarian age laziness.
Anyways, I may be alone in this. I don't think there's
Scion said:
Met on their own terms, the Decans work... frankly I think they kick all kinds of divinatory ass, which probably means I am a nutjob.

Also an interesting article by Ben Dykes at this link:
http://www.bendykes.com/articles/decans.htm

So....one question I have for starters is....why the Chaldean system? I've read about an alternate system (triplicity/Oriental?) and am not sure if there are also others. It's all quite new to me, but I'm certainly interested in why the Golden Dawn used the Chaldean system.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated :)
 

Scion

Heh heh heh... }) I'd LOVE to discuss the Decans... at any degree of specificity you'd like. Till you cry uncle, in fact. But I'm going to have to do some fierce oversimplification to do it in under about 50,000 words.

The Chaldean order is a straight lift from the Picatrix, by way of Agrippa which the GD pulls out of Barrett's plagiarized Magus. Historically, the likeliest explanation for the Chaldean order is Harranian star worship. (cf Green's City of the Moon God and Swerdlow's Babylonian Theory of the Planets). I'd bet a lot that it's a straight pull from astral religion and the temple geography and architecture of the Sabaeans.

Now, having gone out on a theoretical limb there I'll add another boulder to the mill. When the Decans are described as being one of the Seven Wanders "in" a division of a sign, it doesn't literally mean that that Decan is identical to that planet in that sign in a chart. Aries I is not equivalent to having Mars in Aries in a chart, it is characterized by a force that resembbles Mars as he expresses himself in Aries. In fact the oldest references to them say that the Decan is always a place of dignity for the given planet, even when the planet is otherwise ill-dignified. This goes back to my argument in the seven planets thread (to which I'll return as soon as I've got the proper time on my hands) about the Geography of the zodiac vs. the agency of the Planets.

The Decans are directly and explicitly linked with the belief in spirits and "lords of time" from their creation as an Egyptian calendrical system. This fundamental association continues through their absorption into the Yahwist mythologies and later on, Hellenistic astrology and European magick. HUGE topic there that particular evolution. And one that really will take a book to look at properly.

The important thing (far as I can tell) is that the Decans (unlike the fundamentally passive zodiac terrain) seem to have been regarded as ACTIVE spirits holding sway over capital-T Time... what the Gnostics would have called Aeon. The Decans are often referred to as controlling the planets (!) because they existed in the sphere "above" them. To get even straner, they are explicitly referenced as dæmons in early Solomonic magickal material (cf Peterson, Ameisenowa, Rankine & Skinner)

Here's the weird thing: the tradition of the Decans seems to fall out of favor largely because of Ptolemy. He literally ignores them in the Tetrabiblos without explanation or exegesis. Most scholars agree on the reason; Ptolemy (who many scholars do not even believe was a practicing astrologer) was determined to codify astrology, emphasizing the science over the art. And the more pagan, magickal elements were usurped by a mechanistic post-Stoic view of the cosmos as interlocking crystalline spheres... but those damn spirits just wouldn't go away. Even as the original potency of the Decans (which are virtually orphaned in western astrology after the Tetrabiblos) is forgotten, those strange images persist and mutate over thousands of miles and years, while retaining versions their original Egyptian names. (!!!) The Deacns literally refused to die and continue to pop up in Western magick and astrology for 2000 years, maybe because of oral tradition or because the efficacy made them something of a trade secret that didn't quite fit the much-vaunted pristine Ptolemaic model. Over and over the belief in the Decans and the Planets as conscious entities reemerges in the magickal tradition. At root, western magick is concerned with traffic with spirits/dæmons (cf Kieckhefer, Fanger, Walker, et al) . The tug of war in astrology between scientific "de-spirited" astrology" and magickal "dæmonic" astrology reaches a fever pitch in the Enlightenment as materialist science becomes the new state religion and magic is kicked to the curb. We all know how wonderfully that turned out.

But still still still... there is this lingering belief that the universe is not a machine, that spirits are at work around us, that events are not random and empty, that the world is pregnant with meaning and consciousness. In many senses, traditional astrology is the loam from which this belief springs.

It literally comes down to the old Fate vs. Free Will debate that plagues Western civilization: are our lives meaningful and what controls them? The empty, facile, psychologized New Age horsehit that has passed for astrology for 100 years is predicated on a nonsensical view: that the universe is a mechanism BUT that the mechanism can be bent to our will if we just wish hard enough. We might call this Free Will with a lower case "f" (as in F.U. mom and dad! You're not the boss of me! :rolleyes:) in which there is infinite entitlement and no responsibility. The Aquarian Age rejection of "Fate" as ineluctable necessity is a kneejerk reaction based on people liking to have their own way. A me-generation wankfest where everything is a reason to pat yourself on the back and feel proud. Getting your way and Free Will are not the same thing. The trouble with a universe possessing deities and spirits and meaning (and Fate) is that some things MEAN more than others, some events WILL happen, everyone doesn't get to be the protagonist in the universal drama, we cannot be FREE agents. Only in a universe empty of spirits (and therefore magick) could people believe they can act blindly and randomly without consequence or cosmic impact. Only in a universe devoid of consciousness could someone believe that EVERY horoscope is positive, that EVERY person is special, that EVERY fate is happy.

Now, this is only a position, I'm sure people will take exception to the above and have lots to say. I'm sure we'll have fun fighting over that one. :D The thing I can't figure out is if people want to reject the spirits/magick how they wrap their heads around astrology in the first place. How do they justify astrology as some kind of psychological bait-n-switch for people who couldn't be arsed to get their PhD or MD and practice as a licensed mental health profesional? And why bother mutilating something so robust and venerable for such a questionable gain? As much as it may pain the editors at Llewellyn, premodern humanity did not see the world in the way we do. The world was pregnant with spirits being born and taking action at every moment. The idea of a generic "goddess" or a person being described as a "Scorpio," or magick as a mood would have seemed ridiculous.

In a sense, this philosophizing takes us right back to your original question: why the Chaldean order for the Decans? I'd argue long and hard that the answer is because the astrological world, that is to say, the worldview which permits astrology to exist in a coherent meaningful way, is swollen with consciousness, populated with spirits that follow a (super)natural Order. The power in Astrology, the force that drives events is the Planets. They are literally described as conscious entities. Only modern astrologers treat them like softserve dispensers squirting out "anger" or "love" or "invention" as they pass overhead and under our feet. For the folks living before the 17th century, for people who lived under monarchs, who understood the hierarchies of their world and cosmos, who believed that the universe was meaningful and that lives could spool out like Fate-spun thread, the Planets were the rulers obeyed even by rulers. Situating that power in the PLanets is (in a sense) the "spring" at the center of the astrological clock. No... that's too materialist an image. How about: the Planets are the sap in the astrological tree, and the light in its leaves and the tickle of nutrients in its roots, the fruit sparkiling in its branches.

There was nothing more powerful in the ancient consciousness than the 7 wanderers. Lots of folks make a good case for them being the source of the gods in the ancient pantheons of a whole BUNCH of cultures including pretty much any one of which you've ever heard. Every culture in the ancient near east ordered the planets according to the "Chaldean" order. (n.b. The name itself is a kind of historical joke). As rulers over these awesome forces, the Decans would reflect the Planets as much as the Planets reflect the Decans. As below, so above. In turn, since the Decans were both spirits AND (as such) rulers over regions of the sky, the only way for mere mortals to make sense of the Empyrean would have been to judge the sway of the 7 as they moved through the 36, and in turn how the 36 drove the 7. The Planets' comparative dignity would have been of the utmost importance in making sense of them (and making use of them) effectively. But that's another larger topic...

Blather blather... is that an okay start?
 

sapienza

Well, I was hoping you'd turn up here Scion :D Great start....thanks SO much for the input and great information. It's so hard to find anything anywhere about this topic....as you know :)

So, the other decan system of triplicity is a more modern idea which is more zodiac based then rather than focusing on the planets? When I was studying (modern) astrology it seemed to make more sense, but now I'm starting to see the bigger picture. The whole idea of the decans just fascinates me, but I've no real understanding of why. Maybe that's part of the 'magic'?

So....to show up just how ignorant I am, I'll ask another question. If Mercury was in the second decan of Sagittarius, would it be strong because Sagittarius 'rules' that decan, despite the fact that Mercury is usualy in its detriment in Sagittarius? Or am I totally on the wrong track?

Wow, between decans, reading John Frawley's book and podering the meaning, or lack thereof, of Southern Hemisphere astrology I think my head is about to explode :bugeyed:
 

Scion

The system of triplicity/cadence and the Decans is actually out of Jyotish and the period n which Hellenistic astrology migrates to Northern India and does some wacky mutating under a new mythological framework. The reason that triplicity is the mdoel used in modern sunsign astrology is because theosophical astrology drew so heavily on South Asian ideas as it birthed the New Age. Remember: theosophical astrology --> Alan Leo --> modern sunsign astrology. IMO triplicity in the Decans is exactly the kind of mechanistic, uberliteral model that 19th century reductionists enshrined.

Again, MASSIVE topic... but the thing to know is that the Chaldean order is unquestionably older in the tradition.

At some point, you might want to check out Noonan's Scientific Astrology for a great explanation of the why's and wherefores of traditional astrology. There's a little more math than people might want to grok, but his clarity and knowledge of the topic make the sunsign twaddle seem pretty idiotic and feeble. And actually the more I've looked at Jyotish, the more respect I have for it as a working system that didn't abandon the underlying philosophy... though I have quibbles with it personally (the sidereal BS, the replacement of magick with straight up worship, etc). Jyotish is a fascinating subtopic and worth WAY more of everyone's time than Linda Goodman drek.

Now as for your question... it isn't idiotic, and its one for which there isn't a clear simple formulaic answer. It would depend on the chart and the purpose of the chart. As I said above, The Greeks often characterize a planet in it's corresponding Decan as being powerfully dignified (therefore forceful in the chart) which can be good or bad depending on context, obviously. This basic impulse continues as astrology migrates east, but dwindles after about the 13th century for some reaosn. The strength of Mercury within "Mercury" Decans is a matter of substantial debate because a lot of our information is fragmentarty and most popular astrology after Ptolemy ditches the Decans except as a magickal relic. Magick is where the Decans survive, and it is from magick that they continually leak back into the practices of working astrologers. The more divorced astrology became from the magickal worldview, the more these explicitly magickal traditions were orphaned. By the time we get to Lilly, the Decans' impact on dignity is minor and they have been almost reduced to something he uses to describe the impact of Eclipses. :bugeyed: Again, much larger topic. But the short answer is: yes, stronger (because of dignity), but it's chart dependent and for some astrologers gets into questions of specific degrees. The celestial geography of spirits!
 

sapienza

Ok, that is beginning to make sense. It is such a big topic and at ten past five on a Friday evening, possibly too much for my brain to process. So, I'm off to start making pizza for my girls dinner and while I'm doing that I'll ponder the decans, astrological magick, and the meaning of life while I'm at it :D Who said life as a stay-at-home mum was boring?

Thanks again Scion, your input on this is a great help.
 

Abrac

sapienza, if you can get a copy of DuQuette's companion book to the Tarot of Ceremonial Magick, it has some info on the decans. There's only about 4 1/2 pages, but what's there is excellent. It has a couple of charts that lay it all out. I've never seen anything like it anywhere else.
 

sapienza

Thanks for the tip Abrac. I'll see if I can hunt it down.
 

Bernice

Scion & Sapienza,

Excuse my interruption, just a small question.......because it irks me :confused:
I am otherwise fascinated and enjoying this thread.

Here's the irksome bit = I'm assuming that your spelling of the word "magick" (magic) is to accord with A.C.s spelling - and meaning? But if this is so, the G.D and A.C. wasn't around during the periods of time you speak of....(thank goodness)

Bee :)
 

Grigori

Bernice said:
But if this is so, the G.D and A.C. wasn't around during the periods of time you speak of....(thank goodness)

Ah, but magick was ;)
 

Bernice

Oh God - not I hope with a "K" like A.C.!

B :eek: