Sacred Empty Places.

"Draw not nigh hither," says the Lord to Moses; "Put off thy shoes from thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is Holy Ground"

"Well yes" I nod in agreement "Historical research forum is indeed Holy Ground to me........and why is this Holy Ground somewhat empty?"

I raced around the four corners and did banishing rituals just in case, I had previous bought wrong attitudes in here...and a voice on high came to me..

"Have you thought Rosanne- that it might have all been said?"

"All been said?????....is that you Ficino? Plato? Shucks is that you God?"

"No- I am the great Search Engine... I have great knowledge of theoretical speculations that have gone before....do not look for me, for no orientation can be established..I am an echo of great threads....and anyway things move on to web links and the like."

"But, but.. but.. I have many questions, even if I cannot keep to rigid Historical facts...(I whisper "speculations sir....speculations) like why Heirophant? Is it because he is an Heirophany? You know sacred manifestation? A Holy rock- still a rock but something different as well?
Or did those Renaissance Bankers play Tarot in their lunch breaks? Why did they chuck cards down a well in Milan? Has anyone found a script for the order of a Saint John the Baptist Processions? Did Paracelsus know about cards? How much did the gambling tavern man pay for his cards? Did women gamble in the Taverns? More Poems...I want more Poems to be translated...."

The voice came down again having obviously used his own engine to mimic Erasmus

"And so I'll say goodbye. Clap your hands, live well, and drink, distinguished iniatiate of Folly... try prodding them to post."

"OK......Hello..Hello...Hello is anybody out there?"

Dürer, in his journal: Nuremberg in July 1521 :... Item: "I lost 12 stuiver at card play. Drank 2 stuivers."

1559 Duke Cosimo de Medici authorized a token book burning: "sacred things or magic spells,geomancy,chriomancy,astrology and other similar matters"

Jakob Fugger retained a personal fortune teller to predict the outcome of deals.

These are things that might lead to insights worth understanding as they pertain to tarot/cards/divination and their attitudes...if one looked into it

Oh thank G.....I mean the great point in the sky!

Not everyone has gone to the dark side to be with beastie Man and his ancient telephone number.

1559 Duke Cosimo de Medici authorized a token book burning: "sacred things or magic spells,geomancy,chriomancy,astrology and other similar matters"

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Now that is something I have not read and I collect books about this family!
I will look further....12 Shivers??? what is a shiver? And while we are at it who was Fugger?
~Rosanne

stuiver..not shiver LOL

Jakob Fugger lent a lot of money to Charles V. (You might say he sponsored him into Holy power.)

Jacob Fugger was painted by Albrecht Dürer.

Sometimes I look off of what some might call the right path for information on attitudes and idea's as they pertain towards forms of divination. The tid bits.

I think you will find some information of the book burning in " Worldly goods" by Lisa Jardine. A fun read.

Well I went and looked for Cosimo and why he might have had a 'Token' burning of things like Cards and the like. In 1559 a Medici of Milan(no relation) became Pope (Pius 1V) and less than a year later Cosimo's son Giovanni was given a cardinals Hat. It was not to do with the Bonfires of the Vanities and Savonarola- because that happened in 1497. It would seem that it had to do with Cosimo himself. It was 15 years before he died that he did this token burning. I do not think he was feeling like his soul was endangered or that he had made money through usury and this was some sort of Penance for his reknowned cruelty. But he had won Siena where Savonarola had his Bonfire and was later burned in the square...... maybe it was more to do with Ice Cream
Ice Cream arrived in Italy in 1559. One could not play cards whilst eating Ice Cream- better burn the cards?
~Rosanne

Dürer, in his journal: Nuremberg in July 1521 :... Item: "I lost 12 stuiver at card play.

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Wastrel!
Speaking like the Chef from Sesame street...

Von Goudgulden est a franc or a Florin (not gold mind you) and is made up of 20 Stuivers. A Stuiver is 240 Deniers (Where have I heard this name before?)
12 Stuivers is at that time equates to four hours on a common boat for hire. Which brings to mind what is a common boat? One you can cuss on? It is one and one half days lodging in a tidy Tavern. There is a song in this somewhere.........
Oh mother Oh Father I lost twelve Stuivers in a tidy Tavern
Oh where oh where shall I sleep tonight.
I counted and counted the cards all through the night
I guess I will lay my vile sinful body in a dark and damp cavern....

~Rosanne

Jacob Fugger provided Charles V with the money needed to bribe the seven electors to make him Holy Roman Emperor in 1519. Charles ennobled the family and granted them sovereign rights over their lands, including that of coining their own money. Jacob also secured the right to sell papal indulgences, which increased his already vast fortune tenfold. (wikipedia)

Connections, connections ! He was born exactly 100 years earlier than when Cosimo I burned the stuff in 1559. Could the burning have been a memorial to the multi millionaire's birth? Nah not likely- the Italian wars ended in 1559
Maybe all the sacred things or magic spells, geomancy, chriomancy, astrology and other similar matters had not worked during the 65 years of war and it twas prayers alone that saved the day. Or maybe they did work and this was a sacred fire to the Goddess of Fortune. Strange lot these Renaissance men, I was reading about one of whom it was said He was a petty crook and embezzler and a devout Christian.......
~Rosanne

Rosanne said:

Well I went and looked for Cosimo and why he might have had a 'Token' burning of things like Cards and the like. In 1559 a Medici of Milan(no relation) became Pope (Pius 1V) and less than a year later Cosimo's son Giovanni was given a cardinals Hat. It was not to do with the Bonfires of the Vanities and Savonarola- because that happened in 1497. It would seem that it had to do with Cosimo himself. It was 15 years before he died that he did this token burning. I do not think he was feeling like his soul was endangered or that he had made money through usury and this was some sort of Penance for his reknowned cruelty. But he had won Siena where Savonarola had his Bonfire and was later burned in the square...... maybe it was more to do with Ice Cream
Ice Cream arrived in Italy in 1559. One could not play cards whilst eating Ice Cream- better burn the cards?
~Rosanne

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It was about money and politics (and you can buy ice-cream with it)

The list would have ruined the Florentine book trade if followed to the letter. He had a large financial stake in it. It was pointed out to the Duke that about 100,000 ducats would be the cost in lost books just from private libraries.It was the Dukes view the Inquisition should pay the value of the books if they wished them destroyed. The buring was a comprimise.

Rosanne said:

"But, but.. but.. I have many questions, even if I cannot keep to rigid Historical facts...(I whisper "speculations sir....speculations) like why Heirophant? Is it because he is an Heirophany? You know sacred manifestation? A Holy rock- still a rock but something different as well?

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I still say, would he not simply have meant "blessing" to most people in tarot's day? especially since his hand is raised in same (in the holy Marseilles, though not perhaps south of the Alps).

. . . Why did they chuck cards down a well in Milan?

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(Because they were mass-produced, hence easily replaced?)

(Have fun searching further wells, R.)

I have spent the night reading about this.

The Talmud was confiscated and publicly burned in Rome in 1559 in September. This burning was held under the auspices of Cardinal Caraffa,a rabid counter-Reformationist later to be Pope Paul IV, with the backing of Pope Julius III. Talmud burning spread through much of Italy.

Sixtus Senesis, an apostate Jew who became a Dominican, tried to convince the local Spanish governor to burn the Talmud. The governor demanded witnesses before he would give the order. Vitttorio Eliano, the converted grandson of Elias Levita and one Joshua dei Cantori, bore witness that the Talmud was full of lies about Christianity. A few days later approximately 10,000 books were burned. The Zohar was not touched since the Pope and the Catholic church was interested in its publication, believing that it would supplant the Talmud and make it easier to convert the Jews.
The Peace about the Italian Wars was signed in April 3 1559 and at the same time the Index of the Catholic Faith and Morals (banned books) was first published.

As far as Cards are concerned I think this was more important!

At the start of the Habsburg–Valois War, began when Henry 11 declared war against Charles V with the intent of recapturing Italy (1551) there was an edict called "Chateaubriant" (STEAK CHATEAUBRIANT????I swear I will never eat this dish again- books and people burned at the stake! ) This edict was apparently all about Heresy. I reckon it was more about controlling the Italians and commerce. Fourteen of its forty-six articles were concerned with censorship; its terms strictly regulated the press by prohibiting the sale, importation or printing of any book unapproved by the Faculty of Theology at the University of Paris, then or, now it was implied, in the future. Booksellers were to display a copy of the Faculty's printed list of prohibited books alongside a list of books for sale. Delegates of the Faculty were to make visits twice a year to each bookseller and printers to ensure that the provisions were complied with. Since 1542 it had been a requirement that any shipment of books and printed matter into France be opened and unpacked in the presence of delegates from the Faculty of Theology.

This could well explain the dearth of Cards we have of this period- why printers went to France- why the Marseille pattern became prominent and why Cosimo made only a token burning.......... God and Money once again.
~Rosanne