A Pre-Tarot Papessa in Padova?

Ross G Caldwell

Here is an image which is formally similar - from the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili (usually attributed to Francesco Colonna), 1499 (chapter 31, p. 435)
http://mitpress.mit.edu/e-books/HP/ihyp435.htm

Recently Liane Lefaivre has argued that Leon Battista Alberti is the author. To see the entire book (in Latin) and Lefaivre's argument, see -
http://mitpress.mit.edu/e-books/HP/

Here the figure is the High Priestess of Venus flanked by two of her attendants -
hp435.gif


From what I can make of the Burckhardt Salone image, in comparing the two the differences are significant. The High Priestess hides her hands in the joined sleeves of her robe, whereas the Salone figure seems to have her right hand on something in her lap, and her left is either resting on her lap or holding something not captured by the painter; the robe itself is ecclesiastical in the Salone image, while in the Hyp. Pol. it seems to be "fantasy pagan"; the same qoes for the Crown - in the Hyp. Pol. it appears as fantasy, or loosely based on the (Holy Roman) Imperial crown, while in the Salone image it does appear to be a Papal tiara, but that remains to be seen.

Finally, the attendants in the Hyp. Pol. aren't holding anything (but then maybe the Salone ones aren't either).

hp435.jpg


I bring this up not to suggest that the Tarot's Papessa has anything to do with the Hyp. Pol.'s High Priestess of Venus, but if we are wrong about the identity of the Salone figure, given that it is in the first month of Spring, it *might* have something to do with love.

Ross
 

kwaw

My first thought was that this vertical was perhaps linked to the third decan of aries ruled by venus, with the reclining nude female at top and couple in centre, but such a scheme is not reflected in the other panels...
 

Ross G Caldwell

kwaw said:
My first thought was that this vertical was perhaps linked to the third decan of aries ruled by venus, with the reclining nude female at top and couple in centre, but such a scheme is not reflected in the other panels...

Yes, I'm hoping Mueller has some ideas. She seems to specialize in astrology.

The 10th degree of Taurus has an interesting enthroned figure in the Astrolabium Planum
http://www.tarot.org.il/Degrees/Taurus.html

but I couldn't find anything in Pisces to match. Mueller does say that some images are in the wrong place (which I guess means that she has a theory).

Ross
 

Scion

It's funny... I was thinking of the same image in the Hypnerotomachia as I was walking this afternoon... although partially because of Robert Place's (similar) arguments relating the Papess to depictions of the (pagan) Priestess of Venus.

Like Kwaw, I feel like there is a decanic logic in these, which seems logical given Abano's influence. Spent time this afternoon ordering books Ross. I want to see the whole sequence in greater detail and I'm sure a pattern will emerge.
 

kwaw

kwaw said:
Some more images at site below, which identifies the central figure with two horns as an image of mars (?):

That is a hunter as march, not mars, duh...

According to the audio tour here (tape 2:8)

http://www.soundtouring.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=17&Itemid=29

The fresco cycle commences with St. Andrew and goes left to right, the figure with two horns two panels to the right of St. Andrew is a hunter as a symbol for the month of march, two panels further on is the ram/aries, then three panels futher to the right the figure of mars.

http://www.pd.astro.it/MOSTRA/IMAGES/MAR1.JPG

The narrator does say there is a catalogue if you want to know the other panels but from what he says I think it only identifies the most obvious elements (e.g., apostle, month, sign, planet, etc).
 

Rosanne

Hi Ross,
I was very fortunate to spend some time in Padua this year. I have just looked through the post cards of the Ragione Salon to see if I have a close-up.
You can buy postcards of close-ups of each section of the fresco- the Padua Tourist board would send you one I am sure. They were very helpful. I have some of the horses and the Foucault pendulum that showed apparently connection between Padua and science.
I did not notice the Papesse arghhhh.
Couple of interesting things about the Salon- it is designed like two upturned boats and there is a gallery between the two halls called the 'Walk of the rope' or something similar- where measure cheats where tied with hands behind their back and dropped upside down, as punishment. I was laughing at the time because I had heard the Tarrochi players call the Hanged Man- The Cheat and wondered why.
Oh I found a translated comment...
The covered walkway between Piazza delle Erbe and Piazza of the fruit is called Face the rope. The name derives from sections of rope that there were administered in the Middle Ages to traders on cheat measures.l The penalty consisted in raising the offender for the wrists tied behind his back to upside down then let me fall. :)D )

The fair is held vituperio of the stone on which the insolvent debtors were forced to fly three times in the buttocks after having stripped (the practice is the basis of the stay in canvas slings).
In front of the west facade of the exhibition stands the Palazzo appropriate that was related to the fair itself from an elevated passage through which were translated from the palace itself Exhibition debtors convicted because the Palace was due precisely the insolvent debtors' prison.
In a match of the four corners of the palace, in the outer wall are carved some unit of measurement that were used by merchants to avoid discussions on the quantities of goods traded.
Sorry about word flow lol.
I was more interested in the chapel that Giotto painted, damn! I should have taken more notice of the Salon. There is also a very old Tower called the Tower of the Elderly- I could not find out why it was so called.
Wonderful place Padua! Hope you get there.
~Rosanne
 

Ross G Caldwell

kwaw said:
That is a hunter as march, not mars, duh...

According to the audio tour here (tape 2:8)

http://www.soundtouring.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=17&Itemid=29

The fresco cycle commences with St. Andrew and goes left to right, the figure with two horns two panels to the right of St. Andrew is a hunter as a symbol for the month of march, two panels further on is the ram/aries, then three panels futher to the right the figure of mars.

http://www.pd.astro.it/MOSTRA/IMAGES/MAR1.JPG

The narrator does say there is a catalogue if you want to know the other panels but from what he says I think it only identifies the most obvious elements (e.g., apostle, month, sign, planet, etc).

That's pretty cool kwaw. The narration is vivid, the explanation seems right. This Professor "Giorgio Sgatto" (?) doesn't sound too Italian to me, though. Maybe he spent most of his life in England. Then there is the cringeworthy "...faces West, where the Sun rises" (2:52) - but the narrator is not the expert here.

Ross
 

Rosanne

No matter I can see Kwaw has posted the Sound Touring site. Should have read his post. There is also a CD of all the walls with narration that you can buy from the ticket office- that is very clear and detailed- cost $10 Euros.
~Rosanne
 

Teheuti

Ross - Fabulous find - though strange as a characteristic of Aries. Still, having the Bagatto & Papessa right next to each other is very interesting.

I was in Padua several years ago with Brian Williams. There was a museum exhibit of furniture at the time so it was hard to see all the frescos so I appreciate the photo of the entire hall. Also, it's impossible to see details from the floor.

They said that a book would be coming out that depicted all the frescos but it wasn't yet available. A CD, that Rosanne mentioned, would be even better for studying the pictures.

I was really impressed by the marble sidewalks - worn deeply in places but still beautiful.

Mary