Magick, Fate and Free Will

Grigori

Curtis Penfold said:
(I'm guessing talking about religion is not considered an OT, because my past posts have not been deleted).

No religion is fine, though we try to stay somewhat within the GD framework here, as religious topics in general are more suited to the Spirituality section which is a subscriber forum. The GD was a Christian order really, so your view point is as valid as anyone else's.

Though your post would be OT in the Thoth section, since over there the world ended over a hundred years ago ;)
 

Curtis Penfold

similia said:
The GD was a Christian order really, so your view point is as valid as anyone else's.

Oh, well, if that's the case, I do want to add that my religion talks about the difference between fore-ordination and predestination.

We think that PREDESTINATION is set in stone. You're a bum because you were always going to be a bum and there's nothing you can do to change that unless you're supposed to change.

FOREORDINATION, to us, means that a person can play a part in God's plan, but that they have to choose to do this.

Scion's right that Free Will and Fate are related, and can be placed together. I think we may believe similar things and simply word it all differently.

I don't, however, believe that a person is supposed to be a hooker. I think choosing to be a hooker might be almost inevitable in certain situations, but that doesn't mean it's ever the right thing to do. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you on this point, Scion.
 

ruchikari

Curtis Penfold said:
God is all-knowing, so He knows what's going to happen next. He knows what you're going to decide. But that doesn't mean you didn't decide to do what you do
.

If he knows what choices we will make then why give us those many options? Why not just show us the way.. I agree with you on karma that is what i was referring to.. not the end of the world judgement ... Can you explain more about the ultimate power?? it's ultimate power for what ? to do what ?

I think you and i agree to the point wherein Man makes his own choices. But you feel god already knows the choice right? Why do you feel so ?

I feel he doesn't know what choice we will make . He knows all the possible choices we have (maybe more than what we are aware of ) and what CAN be the outcome of each one of them. But which option we will choose he doesn't know.

This is because if he knew about our choices and how everything will go there is no need for him to pay attention to our world ..it will be like self functioning machine ...and if he knew our choices from before then in a way isn't our fate fixed ... no matter even if we have made that choice.The fact that he knew it from before makes it fixed.

Also think our lives as a drama ..or a skit .. would it not be very tedious or boring for him to know the entire script to the minutest detail...there will be no fun in watching it....or being present in it..
 

Curtis Penfold

ruchikari said:
If he knows what choices we will make then why give us those many options? Why not just show us the way..

There is more than one right choice. That's obvious.

He gives us these options so that we can develop, so that we can better control ourselves and the universe.



ruchikari said:
I agree with you on karma that is what i was referring to.. not the end of the world judgement ... Can you explain more about the ultimate power?? it's ultimate power for what ? to do what ?

Ah yes, here comes the sacreligion found in the Bible. Jesus says that we will become joint heirs with Him, Him being a Divine Son. We'll have all that the Father has. What does the Father have? Everything.

We don't deserve anything, though, until we can prove ourselves. I believe He'll give us as much as we prove ourselves. If we prove ourselves a little, we'll get a little. If we prove ourselves a lot, we'll get a lot.

And see, it's not that we PROVE ourselves. It's that, in this life, we BECOME something, and we become that something by making choices and experiencing everything. There's no other way.

ruchikari said:
I think you and i agree to the point wherein Man makes his own choices. But you feel god already knows the choice right? Why do you feel so ?

I feel so because I believe God knows everything. Otherwise, to me, He wouldn't be God. He'd be just one of us. (Not a very convincing argument, but the best I can make at the time).

ruchikari said:
I feel he doesn't know what choice we will make . He knows all the possible choices we have (maybe more than what we are aware of ) and what CAN be the outcome of each one of them. But which option we will choose he doesn't know.

This is because if he knew about our choices and how everything will go there is no need for him to pay attention to our world ..it will be like self functioning machine ...

But that would be morally wrong! It would be wrong for God not to play in our lives. I believe in a Loving, All-Knowing, and All Powerful God who works with what He's got.

(I don't believe God "created" us or the universe, rather, He formed the universe and gave us an opportunity to act and perceive. But I believe us, as well as the elements, have always existed. Thus, the world is imperfect because the universe is imperfect, but that doesn't mean God is doing everything He can to make the best situation He can with what He's got...it's complicated. This isn't really a great explanation, but it'll do for our immediate purposes)

ruchikari said:
and if he knew our choices from before then in a way isn't our fate fixed ... no matter even if we have made that choice.The fact that he knew it from before makes it fixed.

You are going to do what you are going to do. I don't see how that concept goes against Free Will.

You are going to choose what you are going to choose. You're not going to choose something differently, because if you were going to choose something differently, you were going to choose something differently.

ruchikari said:
Also think our lives as a drama ..or a skit .. would it not be very tedious or boring for him to know the entire script to the minutest detail...there will be no fun in watching it....or being present in it..

Boring? I don't know.

There is a big difference between KNOWING something and EXPERIENCING something. Imagine this Matrix like a giant stone. God sees the entire stone as if it's one present moment. He sees the future, the past, everything.

But that doesn't mean He's experiencing everything. He'd experience it all moment by moment, just like us.

There's a difference between knowledge and experience, and the difference is what makes it exciting, what makes life a thrill no matter how much you know.



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I do want to add that, obviously, with this worldview, God must know what He's going to do before He does it.

In a way, that's part of this developing thing. We're developing to become a moral person, a person that's comfortable with themselves. We're developing to become like God.

If a person knew what they were going to do, and knew that they were going to regret it, and if they had every power not to do what they saw they would do, they wouldn't do it. Thus, they would be unable to see the future.

Think of it like putting a microphone to a speaker. It just creates a loop.

However, if a person was a moral person, a person who always did what they knew to be right, they'd be that much more ready to see the future. It would be one continuous read.

(This last point is the most difficult to express).
 

ruchikari

Curtis Penfold said:
But that would be morally wrong! It would be wrong for God not to play in our lives. I believe in a Loving, All-Knowing, and All Powerful God who works with what He's got.

My point exactly ..since he doesnt know exact outcome but possible outcomes he is forever present in our lives to guide us. If he knew the exact outcome what motivation he has to stay in our lives ..because we will make a choice we are meant to take according to him.
Curtis Penfold said:
We don't deserve anything, though, until we can prove ourselves. I believe He'll give us as much as we prove ourselves. If we prove ourselves a little, we'll get a little. If we prove ourselves a lot, we'll get a lot.

And see, it's not that we PROVE ourselves. It's that, in this life, we BECOME something, and we become that something by making choices and experiencing everything. There's no other way.

But then according to this god knows how much we will get since he already knows what choices we will make. So eventhough we are contantly trying to proove ourselves ..god will know how much we will try to proove ourselves?

Curtis Penfold said:
I feel so because I believe God knows everything. Otherwise, to me, He wouldn't be God. He'd be just one of us. (Not a very convincing argument, but the best I can make at the time).

what makes him different is that he knows all the possible choices (one's which we don't even know exist) plus outcome of each choices.

It's like the big picture you talked about.. he knows the big picture like a tree diagram made of all our choices and outcomes ..but in that tree diagram we chart our own course.
Curtis Penfold said:
There's a difference between knowledge and experience, and the difference is what makes it exciting, what makes life a thrill no matter how much you know.

:D i agree on this it's like going for a movie eventhough you've heard the story from your friend.
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Curtis Penfold said:
If a person knew what they were going to do, and knew that they were going to regret it, and if they had every power not to do what they saw they would do, they wouldn't do it. Thus, they would be unable to see the future.

Think of it like putting a microphone to a speaker. It just creates a loop.

However, if a person was a moral person, a person who always did what they knew to be right, they'd be that much more ready to see the future. It would be one continuous read.

(This last point is the most difficult to express).

No , i understand it completely !!! for years i have thought about this. This is what makes me belive that future is dynamic.
 

Always Wondering

Scion said:
We cast ourselves as protagonists in these dramas. No one is raised to see themselves as a minor character. Hell, in post-reality-TV-land EVERYTHING is a reason to televise, novelize, cinematize. This is one of the big traps of modern astrology, right? Everyone is the hero of their own story. The thing is, for most of human history, the average person KNEW where they fit in the natural (and supernatural) order. All these ridiculous social mobility delusions and social empowerment falsehoods would have seemed insane, let alone possible. Monarchs had the blood of the gods in their veins; they ruled by divine grace, and were overthrown ditto. The rest of us were "flies to wanton boys."

Thanks Scion. You have put into words some of my own contridictions that I have been trying grasp, much less talk about. I do see myself as a protagonist but feel like a minor character. Thus I was feeling so very innefective.

Scion said:
Now me, personally? I feel like I spend the vast majority of my time picking away at the granite encasing my destiny... chipping at it and dusting what's revealed. Like the slaves in Michelangelo's unfinished marbles. Everything I do That I'm even a little proud of is a direct attempt to reveal that Fate... Ananke... Necessity. What must happen. Often I have to get out of my own damn way, because I find that Fate is a razored steamroller.

This is beautiful.


Still contemplating the your post.

AW
 

Curtis Penfold

ruchikari said:
My point exactly ..since he doesnt know exact outcome but possible outcomes he is forever present in our lives to guide us. If he knew the exact outcome what motivation he has to stay in our lives ..because we will make a choice we are meant to take according to him.

Just because we choose something doesn't mean it was meant to be. He wants us to make the best choices, and He'll try to help each of us so that the righteous meat that goal of perfection and the wicked are accountable of not taking advantage of their situations. But He knows that we won't always make the best decisions. That doesn't mean it was meant to be. It's just something we won't do.

He does what He does knowing the effect His actions will have on us. He made the world knowing before hand the good and bad that would happen on it.

But He made it in a way that would allow us the best opportunity possible. In essence, He does know all the outcomes of a variety of choices He can make, and He makes the best possible choice for humanity.


ruchikari said:
But then according to this god knows how much we will get since he already knows what choices we will make. So eventhough we are contantly trying to proove ourselves ..god will know how much we will try to proove ourselves?

But we can't get ANYTHING if we don't come here, get a body, and try to become the best person we can. We HAVE to do that to become like God, to receive His blessings.

We are different people after living our lives. We deserve what we get afterwards. We wouldn't deserve the same before.



ruchikari said:
what makes him different is that he knows all the possible choices (one's which we don't even know exist) plus outcome of each choices. It's like the big picture you talked about.. he knows the big picture like a tree diagram made of all our choices and outcomes ..but in that tree diagram we chart our own course.

Let's think about the reasoning differently. Do you believe that God makes perdictions? In a variety of religions, there is a divine prediction of the end of the world. This is especially true with Christianity which has the Book of Revelations that goes into point by point detail of this end.

How could God know the end of the world if He doesn't know exactly what's going to happen? I mean, one event could change the history of mankind, and yet He provides an actual complete perdiction that will be followed point by point. It's not presented dynamically. It's presented as something that He knew would happen before the world was.
 

Always Wondering

Scion said:
First off. I LOVE Ursula LeGuin. Love. What a woman. What a writer. I read Tombs of Atuan at least once a year. Thank you for that quote, Kat. :heart:

Secondly, Joys and sorrows... Sim that phrase was a catalyst for some thoughts I've been having! :thumbsup:

I've been thinking about all this as well over the past few days. I aopologize for the ranting I'm about to do, but I've been dwelling so I'm just going to brain dump. Apologies in advance for not editing this into more coherence.
How much of what we think of as Joy or Sorrow is based on our illusions about things like "happy endings" or "tragic consequence" which in turn are based on literary models? Stories as discrete sequences that have clear terminals at either end? The thing is there IS no such thhing as an ending. Or a beginning. It's wildly modern to frame our lives in these totally artificial narrative terms, as if life were a TV episode or a volume in a book series. We can't help it; our imaginations are desperate for meaningful patterns and we've been weaned on entertainment for lack of most other things. Even religion has been affected by it. Christianity was CHANGED by electronic media. Hell, even by the printing press. Ditto Judaism. Ditto Islam. The Peoples of the Book. :D

I think something we can't forget is that Entertainment has replaced Mythology for most of Western civilization. Despite some superficial similarities, they are EVERY different. Myths illuminate. Entertainment amuses. Of course there are times where they overlap, and even coopt each other's functions, but at root we live in a culture that seeks constant amusement... Every moment we have to be stimulated. Every story must have a structure. Every person is a character in a larger dramatis. It's a seductive way of looking at the world because humans crave certainty and order, exactly the things the universe fails to offer. Supply and demand, right? But it's easy to decide that everything is a story when you've been weaned from birth (or earlier depending on your beliefs) on basic story models, basic archetypes, basic moralities. So and so is a happy ending. So and so is a bad person. So and so is a big risk, a last chance, a lucky break, an epiphany, a tragedy, a joke. All fo these things are lessons we learn from art... as in artificial, that which is made not born.

...Which has had an enormous impact on our sense of personal narrative. We crave order and patterns and so we graft familiar patterns onto everything. "My boss is a villain"... "That was a caper"... "I am a scapegoat"... Each of those words has its root in a story with a beginning-middle-end, even though Life has none of those things. Linear time is a pretty recent invention, in terms of civilization. Now that's irritating, because modern folks hate the idea of cyclical time, that nothing changes, that people make the same mistakes in different clothing over milenia. The truth is, people don't change much. As always, I'm reminded of the Ancient Egyptian graffito, "Kids today! The don't respect their elders and they spend all their time in bars." Same old same old. Death at the hands of youth.

EXACTLY! It's not thsat it doesn't affect you, but that you will only be as affected as it is possible for you to be. The same holds true in Magick. It's all well and good to cast a spell to win a court case, but if you don't hire a lawyer and show up, you're moron and magick isn't going to help you win anything. The dopey Hollywood hocus-pocus versions of myth and magick and metaphor have done awful things to people's sense of possibility and expectations. As usual, people want everything for nothing, which (for the record) is exactly what magick (and myth and metaphor and math) is NOT. As above, so below.

When folks grumble about Fate and protest that they only believe in Free Will, I think it's because (like all characters in all art) people like to feel special. And if you aren't special, the option Free Will might at first glance seem to suggest that you could "choose" to be special. (Insert reference to The Secret's feeble retread of an old idea here. :rolleyes:) As if Fate and Free Will were somehow flip sides of some nightmarish Boolean coin, I think Entertainment is at fault. How many people actually choose their lives as easily as picking out a DVD or a novel? How many women become the glamorous, feisty heroine desired by all and mastered by none? How many supermen and geniuses? How many cancer patients or veterans asked for the horrors they live through? Not many. It's a bit like the fundamentalist arguments that disease or rape or bombs are heavenly punishment. It's a simpleton's explanation of the problem of Evil in monotheism. I think the reason we like the idea of picking our destiny (which is completely oxymoronic if you think about it) is because Entertainment has suckled us on the lie that we can have what we want if we ask for it and pay for it. This is the shaky "I heart Free Will" line that gets trotted out when the subject comes up in casual conversation.

We cast ourselves as protagonists in these dramas. No one is raised to see themselves as a minor character. Hell, in post-reality-TV-land EVERYTHING is a reason to televise, novelize, cinematize. This is one of the big traps of modern astrology, right? Everyone is the hero of their own story. The thing is, for most of human history, the average person KNEW where they fit in the natural (and supernatural) order. All these ridiculous social mobility delusions and social empowerment falsehoods would have seemed insane, let alone possible. Monarchs had the blood of the gods in their veins; they ruled by divine grace, and were overthrown ditto. The rest of us were "flies to wanton boys."

We have become a world comprised solely of shopping and jail. That is not to say that the world has changed, but rather that our mythologies have been castrated and infected by insidious narratives which are at core commercial products. People plunk their kids (and themselves) in front of the boob tube to unwind. Appliances as childcare and sacrament. People are so numb that films have to be scored so that audiences know when to laugh or cry or jump; we are spoonfed content because our critical and imaginative faculties have atrophied. That stuff isn't truth. Any truth it contains is (as Griz once said) the peas in the casserole: the stuff that managed to slip by the suits. Nevertheless, when people start quoting fictional situations is "proof" or using photoshopped advertisements as "ideals" there is a serious disconnect between the mimesis and the message. Is there anyone who doesn't know that Reality Show and True Story are oxymorons?!

I write stories for a living. I make entertainment. I try to slip a couple "peas" in where I can, when I can. And I think that's why Myth and magick are so important to me; because I feel like I have responsibility to know the difference and to trace the boundary obsessively and carefully. It would be as foolish of me to knowingly submit to the whirlpool of lies and live my life as if The Poetics[/u] told the "Truth" as it would be to ONLY study Hermes Great-Great-Great because there's no point on living THIS side of the Veil. Know what I mean?

Now me, personally? I feel like I spend the vast majority of my time picking away at the granite encasing my destiny... chipping at it and dusting what's revealed. Like the slaves in Michelangelo's unfinished marbles. Everything I do That I'm even a little proud of is a direct attempt to reveal that Fate... Ananke... Necessity. What must happen. Often I have to get out of my own damn way, because I find that Fate is a razored steamroller.

Is it possible for us to shake off the explicitly false lessons of Entertainment? To go from selling a story back to telling a story? Will any modern Westerner ever see stained glass as a glorious holy comic book and absorb it in the way a 15th century Spaniard would? Dunno. It's a fashionable position to rail at the machine while you're cashing the check. If I am a whore, I'll cop to it. It's only the hypcrisy I find nasty. The same goes for Fate / Free Will. I don't really believe the line is as thick as some folks, because I know that I am destined to have Free Will as much as I choose to acknowledge my Fate. Or as Crowley might say, "The Universe couldn't be other than I chose it to be."

Scion



I have been recently thinking of the term "back to basics" with a frustrated sigh. Why must I always return to square one? Why is it one step forward and two steps back?
Perhaps it is because I have really never given "basic" chance. It has been more of a means to an end. A place to travel away from.
I can see how I have confused the "going" related to Haddit with my own sense of upperward mobility. Which I suppose is lust of result.

AW