Goetia in Golden Dawn Tarots

Scion

Okay... in the spirit :D of getting this subforum rolling I've got a question for you Hermetic types:

How useful, practical, or effective is the Golden Dawn's assignment of the Goetic spirits to the Minors? Is it just an expression of their completist fervor and the desire to wedge everything into what would become the 777 tables.

For that matter does anyone know of another system relating them to Tarot? I feel like I've seen a million retreads of the basic theurgical qabalistic discussions (i.e. up to 5=6)in a million books and all over the internet, but where's the thaumaturgy?

The GD assignment of "day" and "night" dæmons seems arbitrary at best... and I've never seen anyone DO anything with it in using a GD deck. I know about Paul Huson's writing on the subject, but other than that the subject seems completely unexplored.

Anyone have any insights/anecdotes/observations they'd like to share?
 

Grigori

Scion rocks!

I know nothing of the Goetic attributions, beyond what Duquette says in the companion book for the Tarot of Ceremmonial Magick, which is sourced from 777. I understand that the 72 Goetic spirits are assigned to the 36 numbered cards, (2-10) in pairs, one for the day and one for the night.

Is there a method to the order and placement? Not yet being familar with Goetia, I wonder are the attributions based on some structure/system/pattern as with the astrological attributions, or is it more random? I assume from your post Scion that there is no tradition outside of the tarot to relate a Goetic spirit to the day or night. Do the different types of Goetic spirits get different cards, e.g. a King or a Prince etc..
 

Aeon418

Scion said:
How useful, practical, or effective is the Golden Dawn's assignment of the Goetic spirits to the Minors? Is it just an expression of their completist fervor and the desire to wedge everything into what would become the 777 tables.
I believe the assignment of the Goetic spirits were based on their original correspondence to the Schemahamphorasch. The Golden Dawn creators simply absorbed this information into their syncretic system directly from the medieval source documents available to them.
 

Scion

Sim, it's funny you should ask, I asked Aeon this quesiton a couple years ago...

Mathers (and the Aurum Solis) starts the sequence in Leo and advances by quinance. The Golden Dawn is also a quinance system, but starting in Aries. The 777 attributions shake things up by splitting into Day/Night because Crowley is (perhaps) recalling the Denderah Zodiac and not wanting to split each Decan.

Back when I asked, Aeon dug around and figured out that the GD system starts astrologiclaly from Aries. so Bael (as spirit 1 in the Lemegeton) gets the 1st Aries decan, then the night spirts are the doubling over of the remaining 36... which is why the 2 of wands has the 1st and 37th demons on it.


And Aeon, I see where you're going with the Shem angels, but other than Rudd's usage, I don't know of any other tradition that links them. In Rankine & Skinner's Goetia of Dr. Rudd Orobas is paired with Nanael, but the Golden Dawn pairs him with Mebahel.


Incidentally, I do like Skinner's case (in Complete Magician's Tables etc)for the Goetia as astrological spirits, but agree that the names are so garbled that proper identification is often impossible. :bugeyed:The research on the Goetia is so fragmentary and limited! I can't believe some zealous philologist hasn't taken it on as a thesis topic. I wish I could clone myself and go back to school... :D
 

Aeon418

Scion said:
Back when I asked, Aeon dug around and figured out that the GD system starts astrologiclaly from Aries. so Bael (as spirit 1 in the Lemegeton) gets the 1st Aries decan, then the night spirts are the doubling over of the remaining 36... which is why the 2 of wands has the 1st and 37th demons on it.
I still think that's the most simple and logical answer. ;)

Does the order of the spirits really matter? I just thought of something Lon said in his Tarot of Ceremonial Magick. (p.128)
It should be pointed out that the attributes and correspondences of the Small Cards do not define the characteristics of the spirits of the Goetia or vice versa.
Just a random thought.....

Who added the Goetia spirits to the Golden Dawn system? I can't off hand think where in the GD system Goetia fits. Was it Crowley himself who added them when he was writing up 777? After all he did pay (? :laugh:) Mathers to translate the Lesser Key. And there is a note in there that indicates that they were both well aware of Rudd's manuscript and his attributions.
 

Grigori

Thanks guys. Is there any significance of the order of the numbers in Goetia, beyond being a "standard" numeration? It seems an unlikely way to assign spirits to the cards. I suspect the answer is "nup, order is random" but it would be nice to hear "well the order is a very interesting things, it all started because...." :D

Looking at my chart of the Angels and Spirits, it seems the Angels start from 0 degrees Leo in the order determined by Exodus 14:19. It seems strange to then disregard the pre-existing system of Rudd, and start a simple numerical assignment for the Goetic Spirits starting at Aries...

Aeon418 said:
Who added the Goetia spirits to the Golden Dawn system?

I read on wikipedia that Levi added the Schemahamphorasch to the tarot cards, in day/night pairs, however spread across the full 78 cards. The GD and Crowley then modified it, leaving them in day night pairs (don't know if the same pairs or different) and assigned them to the 36 small cards. So I'd guess the Goetia was added on following that by Mathers or Crowley.
 

Grigori

similia said:
Is there any significance of the order of the numbers in Goetia, beyond being a "standard" numeration?

I've been doing a bit of reading on this, and some OCD table drawing :| I made up a chart of the cards, signs, ruling planets, and related Angels and Geotic spirits, with their ranks and related planet/metal to see if there were any interesting patterns. There weren't so that was a waste of a couple of hours :laugh:, but I did find my way around a few books, so worthwhile I guess.

The interesting part was Rudd's relationships betweem the Shemahamphorasch Angels and Goetic Spirits. I drew them up based on Skinner, who also gives a different alternate numeration for the Spirits based on Rudd. I don't have Rudd yet so can't look it up in the original context. Can anyone tell me does he actually use a different number system? Cause if you draw it up with the "standard" order, its just 1st Angel = 1st Spirit etc. all the way down the 72, starting at 0 degrees Leo. This seemed quite weird, given that Skinner stresses there is no traditional association with the Geotic Spirits and the decans, and yet he published the Rudd stuff which lines up so nicely. So presuambly the connection there is purely Angel=Demon and no talk of decans there.

Anyways attached for the curios, please excuse the typos (and yes, I am shameless pumping you lot for more discussion here, come on cough it up :p )
 

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Scion

Sim!!

Love charts! Apparently we're both compulsive in the same way, but I think we already knew that. :D Not a waste of time at all. In fact, I did something simlar, which wound up leaking into my Liber T thingy. For better or worse there are a couple of interesting overlaps with the Thoth geometry... but that may just be the daemons messing with me. })

Rudd's order IS different if I recall... I have it here on the shelf. I'll check tomorrow.

I think the thing that bothers me most about the GD assignment is the idea of pairing the Goetic spirits. It's just... wrong for a hundred reasons. Which makes me feel like it was a 777 bandaid on a complicated chunk of material for which they didn't have as much research as we do. This is one of those knots I tugged and tugged and tugged at and couldn't find the end of the thread.

In the meantime: have you read the Testament of Solomon; it's definitely related and definitely decanic... but it doesn't line up neatly with the Lemegeton at ALL. :bugeyed: I've got a theory brewing about that, but that's probably for another day too.

It's 4am and I have to get some sleep, but I will definitely come back when I've digested more.


X

S
 

Grigori

Scion said:
Apparently we're both compulsive in the same way

I like color, what can I say :D

Scion said:
Rudd's order IS different if I recall... I have it here on the shelf. I'll check tomorrow.

Thanks! Skinner does give 2 alternate numbering systems, one from Rudd. I assume its directly from the book, but the history of which number system came in which order is fascinating if your looking for a way to line the Spirits up with the decans. I'm assuming from the second hand sources I've read, that Rudd matches the Goetic Spirits with the Shem. Angels, and there would be no real order/system with his numbering system. So how did he line them up?

But if you use the more common number system, then its an exact match with the Angels order, and in turn that would line them them up with the decans, both starting at 0 degrees Leo. So if Rudd is using a different order, then that leads me to ask where his order comes from, where the other order comes from, and why does using half of each's system make a perfectly matching whole? There is probably a very logical boring answer to this, but in the meantime I choose to be fascinated :thumbsup:

Scion said:
In the meantime: have you read the Testament of Solomon
Nope, never even heard of it :D Is it the one by Steven Ashe your referring to?

Scion said:
It's 4am and I have to get some sleep, but I will definitely come back when I've digested more.

You shouldn't eat before bed, it'll give you nightmares ;)

I should say for anyone looking at the charts, the final column with the Goetic Spirits is only matched to the Angels using Rudd's system, the numbers come from the standard and not Rudd, and none of it lines up with anything else in the graph. Its an add on and should be read seperately to the rest.
 

Aeon418

similia said:
I should say for anyone looking at the charts, the final column with the Goetic Spirits is only matched to the Angels using Rudd's system, the numbers come from the standard and not Rudd, and none of it lines up with anything else in the graph. Its an add on and should be read seperately to the rest.
But what defines the "standard" order, or even Rudd's?

In his introduction to the The Lesser Key of Solomon, Joseph H. Peterson draws attention to the similarities between the Goetia and the earlier catalogue of demons published by Johann Weyer in 1563 as Pseudomonarchia daemonum. (emphasis added)
It includes variations in many of the names, showing that it had been redacted by the time Weyer obtained it, so it evidently dates from long before 1563. In Weyer's text, there are no demonic seals, and the demons are invoked by a simple conjuration, not the elaborate ritual found in the Lemegeton.

The most striking difference between Weyer's text and the Goetia is the order of the spirits. I see no explanation for the difference; it's almost as if a stack of cards got scrambled. There are also four additional spirits found in the Goetia that aren't in Weyer (number 3, Vassago, and the last three, Seere, Dantalion, and Andromalius).

Other anomalies may be of more significance. One is that the fourth spirit in Weyer's text, Pruflas (alias Bufas), was accidentally left out of Reginald Scot's English translation, or was already missing from the edition used by Scot (a manuscript dated 1570). It is also the only spirit from Weyer's list that is not found in the Lemegeton. If a specific edition can be found that introduced this defect, it might allow us to fix the date of the composition of the Goetia in it's present form.
Are Crowley and Mathers' Goetic correspondences 100% correct? I doubt it. But they did what all magicians have done throughout the centuries. They used the creations of those who came before them as raw material for their own works. A good example is Golden Dawn Enochian compared to the original system laid down by Dee and Kelley.

In some ways it reminds me of the recent uproar, or storm in a tea cup, caused by the new translation of Abramelin by Georg Dehn & Steven Guth. After it's publication hoards of morons began pouring scorn on Mathers translation because of a difference in the proscribed length of the operation. 18 months compared to Mathers 6 months. I'm sure details such as this are of great import to scholars. But should they be of equal importance to magicians?
Since when did following turgid ancient manuscripts to the letter guarantee success in magick? Crowley recognised this fact all to well with his own version of the Abramelin (Liber VIII) that simplifies and condenses the entire operation into a mere 12 weeks!!!

This quote from a letter between Crowley and McMurty about a personal rendition of Liber Resh sums it up nicely. At the time of writing, Grady McMurty had been digging into Egyptology to find the "correct" gods.
The gods that you quote are not at all those given in Liber Resh and I do not see why you should depart from the text, but if for some reason you find them more suited to your peculiar style of beauty, go ahead and heaven prosper you! As long as you do not get into a state of imagining that it matters such a devil of a lot if you have got some detail wrong. It is this state of doubt which damages people's practices. You drift more and more vaguely into the uncharted archipelago of theory; and presently arrive at a state of jitters in which none of your practises work any more at all.