Goetia in Golden Dawn Tarots

Scion

:) Aeon I take your point... but I tend to be a completist about these things.

It's not that I believe any one original source exists with a pristine order for the 72, but more that by examining every scrap of data we can trace the edges of the topic. The Goetia are so hyped in the magickal community, and yet the material that circulates seems to come from the same 4 sources. I really dig Rankine & Skinner's new book mainly for the fact that they poured more info into the stream. And bottom line: it works.

I was also amused by the Abramelin kerfuffle. In the same way I am by the bickering between the various Golden Dawn orders wrestling over claims of legitimacy. In these things I tend to take the Chaos position: does it get results? :) Like Crowley, I think the main thing is that the consideration not derail the practice. But obviously he studied everything upon which he could get his paws.

The same skew happens throughout the grimoire tradition because people forget about things like copying errors and historical context. At best the "Solomonic" material is working notes specific to a practitioner that got copied. At best, the books are a starting point.

In a sense the Goetia question is the easiest: we just have to ask them.

It's just that I'm fascinated by the history as well and the way the material has been coopted and adapted over time. With regard to the Golden Dawn's use of the spirits, I'm interested how FEW people comment on it; the situation reminds me of my little Liber Hermetis "discovery" with the decans: it's not that the Liber T art was "weird" but that no one had bothered to post the Hermetis decan descriptions on the internet... which meant that they'd virtually ceased to exist in easy-access internet consciousness. As a consequence EVERY review of that deck decided that it was simply bizarre and negative. If everyone just relies on each other's research then no progress is made. It's like a dark Ouroboros where we'll all just read the same rehashed bits and never move in any direction.

With the Golden Dawn stuff, I think it's because most people tend to repeat and regurgitate the same accessible material over and over from Regardie et al. How many copies of the Bornless Ritual, or the lesser Banishing Ritual does ANY library need to contain? How many times do publishers have to print bollocks about pathworking or the letter assignments from people who don't read Hebrew or practice magick of any stripe? :D And recently a lot of fluffy Angels-in-a-can coming down the pipe. It's not that I think it's worthless, it's just that it's material that's been covered so often. I understand the marketing issue, but the bias blurs over into "serious" occult writing as well, academic and otherwise.

As André Gide said, "One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." I still want to know everything I can about every element I can reference. Not as the outline of some monolithic castle-in-the-sand truth, but as logs for the fire.

Which goes back to the original question: is there any evidence of the GD or its members making use of the Goetic attributions in conmnection to Tarot? And to add your wise codicil: did it get results?
 

Aeon418

Scion said:
:) Aeon I take your point... but I tend to be a completist about these things.
I apologise if my previous post read like a personal criticism. I wasn't intended as such. I too suffer from "dot every I and cross every T syndrome". :laugh:
Scion said:
Like Crowley, I think the main thing is that the consideration not derail the practice. But obviously he studied everything upon which he could get his paws.
That's true. But Crowley was never one to get side tracked by minutiae and details. He would probably have used something he found useful and dicarded, without a second thought, anything he thought inessential to his purposes.

An opposite phenomenon seems to be happening these days that is leading to contempt for the Golden Dawn system in some quarters. Every time a new piece of information comes out of some long forgotten manuscript that conflicts with modern day systems, some people have a kind of crisis of faith. It's as if they equate antiquity with authenticity. But this fails to recognise that ancient systems are just as much a human construct as more modern systems like the Golden Dawn.
Scion said:
With regard to the Golden Dawn's use of the spirits, I'm interested how FEW people comment on it
I think the basic answer is that the Goetia was added to the Golden Dawn by Crowley. As such, it doesn't form part of that system. I've spoken to holy-roller Golden Dawn purists who practically started babbling at the mere mention of Goetia. :rolleyes:
Wasn't part of Crowley's bad rep in Golden Dawn circles to do with the fact that he was experimenting with the Goetia in his Chancery Lane appartments?
 

Scion

Don't worry I didn't take it personally. Truth be told, I always read your posts hearing a warm, jocular Northern accent in my head so I'm unlikely to infer offense. :) I just wanted to keep the convo going.
Aeon418 said:
Wasn't part of Crowley's bad rep in Golden Dawn circles to do with the fact that he was experimenting with the Goetia in his Chancery Lane appartments?
Exactly so... and one of the main reasons Waiite hated/criticized him so viciously: accusations of "foul" Goety. Waite was already headed for souped up Christian mysticism (path of the sword) by the time they crossed paths, and Crowley had come out the other side of mysticism into something... else. In fact Waite's Ceremonial Magic{/i] pretty much condemns Goetia across the board. Mathers is another story, but I don't think he would have built somethign that symbolically unmanageable into the GD teachings. So it is Crowley, working off the Mathers translation. I do find myself wishing tha they had remained friends just a bit longer... the GD would have had a very different path. And so would they, natch.

Always the Manichean anxiety, :bugeyed: as if you can draw a circle around one group of spirits and say: GOOD... and everything that falls without is BAD. Like the universe is an enormous simplisitic chessboard.

It's funny... most religion texts will tell you that dualism comes to us from the Zoroastrians, but Zoroastriansim is actually animist more than anything. It's the literal reinterpretation of religion where people inevitably step in the poo. :rolleyes:

I've been writing aboiut this so much recently (the project I mentioned to you, Aeon, a year or so ago) on my own... so it's really nice to kick the ball around with y'all.
 

Aeon418

Scion said:
Truth be told, I always read your posts hearing a warm, jocular Northern accent in my head
That was bellow the belt. :laugh: Northern accent!!! I'm from the Midlands. :D
Scion said:
So it is Crowley, working off the Mathers translation. I do find myself wishing tha they had remained friends just a bit longer... the GD would have had a very different path.
It's hard to imagine Mathers changing aspects of the Golden Dawn system at the behest of Crowley. The system he created is firmly rooted in the dualistic, Osirian perspective of Spirit transcending matter. Incorporating something as "earthy" as the Goetia would break all the rules.

The classical Golden Dawn model requires a more spiritually relativistic outlook to enable it to embrace Goetia with any degree of comfort. Enter Thelema. :D The different way the averse pentagram is viewed between Golden Dawn and Thelema is a graphic example.
36. Many have arisen, being wise. They have said "Seek out the glittering Image in the place ever golden, and unite yourselves with It."

37. Many have arisen, being foolish. They have said, "Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, and be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime."

38. I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: achieve both weddings! Unite yourselves with both!

39. Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other!

40. My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells.

41. But since one is naturally attracted to the Angel, another to the Demon, let the first strengthen the lower link, the last attach more firmly to the higher.

42. Thus shall equilibrium become perfect. I will aid my disciples; as fast as they acquire this balanced power and joy so faster will I push them.

43. They shall in their turn speak from this Invisible Throne; their words shall illumine the worlds.

44. They shall be masters of majesty and might; they shall be beautiful and joyous; they shall be clothed with victory and splendour; they shall stand upon the firm foundation; the kingdom shall be theirs; yea, the kingdom shall be theirs.

In the name of the Lord of Initiation. Amen.

Liber Tzaddi
 

Grigori

Aeon418 said:
But what defines the "standard" order, or even Rudd's?

I don't know, thats why I'm asking :D I'm really not trying to be pendantic, I'm just very interested.

If Rudd was using the "Standard" order, then he's lined up the Angels and the Spirits in a nice and simple 1=1, 2=2, 3=3... 72=72. But as he doesn't use that order, but still is aligning the exact same pairs, that leaves me wondering what is going on there?

It could be anything, from a huge typo in Skinner, to the more interesting possibility that the "standard" order in the Goetia is in fact based on the Angels or Decans, even though the relationship between them is not ackowledged anywhere.

In that case, we are all sitting around debating the best way to attribute the Goetic Spirits to the decans, Crowley has made up a possibly dodgy variation, when in fact a system was already there, and it was missed! What if someone had said to Crowley "Rudd already lined them up, just put Bael at 0 degrees Leo, and keep going through the deck". What would ew have then. Maybe not that important, since the only real use the Goetia in the cards seems to be as oracle to choose a spirit to evoke, but still its fun to think about.

All this is very unlikely I admit, and probably there is a very boring answer, but still makes me want to find it out. :thumbsup: I have the numbers for the Weyer version here, and that raises the same question. If that is an older version of the numerical ordering, why/when/who where they reordered, and why does Rudd's Angelic pairing, bring them into the more common order perfectly and line them up with the decans?
 

Aeon418

similia said:
What if someone had said to Crowley "Rudd already lined them up, just put Bael at 0 degrees Leo, and keep going through the deck".
Just guessing....

Spirit 1. Bael, and Spirit 2. Agares both "rule in the east". Aries is East in the Golden Dawn system.
 

Grigori

Aeon418 said:
Spirit 1. Bael, and Spirit 2. Agares both "rule in the east". Aries is East in the Golden Dawn system.

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks Aeon. That explains why Crowley would start at Aries in preference to Leo, which perhaps already had the claim via Rudd.

Why the day/night pairings though?...

Scion said:
The 777 attributions shake things up by splitting into Day/Night because Crowley is (perhaps) recalling the Denderah Zodiac and not wanting to split each Decan.

Perhaps because he was specifically avoiding a direct Goetic Spirit = quinance alignment, as he had specifically stepped away from that by choosing to start at Aries.

OK, I'm babbling now I know, but thanks for humouring me :D
 

Grigori

Scion said:
I think the thing that bothers me most about the GD assignment is the idea of pairing the Goetic spirits. It's just... wrong for a hundred reasons.

Re-reading this Scion, and I'm uncertain, is it the pairing of Goetic Spirits into Day/Night pairs that you dislike, or the pairing with an Angel of the Shemahamphorash? What is it about the pairings that disturbs you?

Scion said:
In a sense the Goetia question is the easiest: we just have to ask them.

And then tell your friends what they say... :D
 

Rosanne

How about a description for those not steeped in Occult Tarot as to what Goetia is.
My understanding of Goetia- Is that it is a tradition of Magic (some say Black Magic) that includes incantations, ceremonies and techniques (some say sorcery) sometimes associated with medieval Grimoires- which provide instructions for contacting spirits.
~Rosanne
 

Grigori

Roseanne! :D

Yes, pretty much that is it. I don't think its really a system/method that covers multiple Grimoires though the word seems to be used in that context. It is a specific group of Spirits from one specific Grimoire. The 72 Spirits of the Goetia are described in the Lesser Key of Solomon. There are several sections in the Lesser Key, the first of which is the Goetia (the other sections deal with other, different types of Spirits). The Goetic Spirits are said to be those that Solomon used to build the Hebrew temple among other things before he trapped them in a bottle (obviously the bottle was not strong enough ;) )

You can download the Crowley/Mathers translation at this website.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/index.htm

The general idea being a classic evocation. Stand in the magic circle, call up a spirit by using the recommended conjurations and talismans/seals (hope it doesn't eat you) and tell it to do things for you which it is known to be able to do.

Wiki has a nice summary also. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goetia

Aeon418 said:
I believe the assignment of the Goetic spirits were based on their original correspondence to the Schemahamphorasch.

Just reading the Crowley version and noticed that the title for the section on the 72 spirits is Schemahamphorasch. I thought that word was very specific to the 72 Angels of the 72 letter name of God. Interesting use of it, is that common?

Also I noticed:

THESE 72 Kings be under the Power of AMAYMON, CORSON, ZIMIMAY or
ZIMINAIR, and GAAP, who are the Four Great Kings ruling in the Four Quarters, or Cardinal Points,27 viz.: East, West, North, and South,

Gaap is the only one of these listed in the 72 Spirits, and in the GD system falls in Aquarius. Not sure who the others are or where they come from.