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The hidden ring in the two of wands (RWS)

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Mallah  Mallah is offline
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Wow; another old thread to add to;

The card, to me has always flipped between two basic meanings....

1. looking/waiting for a business or love "partner", in which case the king/prince here is "holding the space" for the other person to come in and take up THEIR wand....

2. It's a "should I stay here where it's safe" or "go out into the world and acheive"....the staff in his hand represents the latter...a walking stick..it's mobile...and the one that is attached to the wall is the former...it "stays put". Both attitudes are related to dominion: the "should I stay" relates to home: dominion=domestic. The "I will go forth and conquer more"=expanding the boundaries of your lordship (lord=domine=dominion).

The "ring" was one of the first things I ever noticed about the card.
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The two wands represent the dominion of the will 'The Lord of Dominion'. One is fixed (or, if one thinks this way ; God's Will) the other is how we apply our will , specifically for ourselves.

IMO they should be crossed, or joined. Perhaps they are here, in a way ... both displayed as 'banners' on a rampart; the 'centre of dominion ;

http://lionsroar.name/4dorge.jpg


Also IMO a card meaning is not just " what you feel it is. " Otherwise one is liable to come up with all sorts of .....

One would hope that any 'intuitive meaning' deepens or enlightens any inherent meaning or symbolism that the deck is supposed to have (otherwise one could just use inkblot cards).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
The two wands represent the dominion of the will 'The Lord of Dominion'. One is fixed (or, if one thinks this way ; God's Will) the other is how we apply our will , specifically for ourselves.

IMO they should be crossed, or joined. Perhaps they are here, in a way ... both displayed as 'banners' on a rampart; the 'centre of dominion ;

http://lionsroar.name/4dorge.jpg
What I've always found meaningful in the picture of this card are the crossed rose and lily in the lower left corner. The red rose represents desire and the white lily purity. Also, according to symbolism by P.F. Case, roses represent number 5 (Man/Pentagram) and lilies represent number 6 (Macrocosm/Hexagram). Kinda relates to what you're saying here, ravenest. I really liked your view on it.
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ravenest  ravenest is offline
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you will give away Waite's secrets !

(Why that image is on the card, why the man is behind his 'fortifications', the Rose and Lily

" It encapsulates the aura, providing a protection against outside influences. "

https://www.scribd.com/doc/28230831/...e-Cross-Ritual )
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Pam O  Pam O is offline
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What a great thread to bump up! You know, I noticed this, but I never consciously thought about the symbolism. Now a variety of thoughts on possible meanings are racing through my head.

I traditionally had viewed the 2 of wands as:
Which of these choices is it going to be best to focus energy on to?
Or, what option of potential focus am I not yet seeing?
What is actually right there for me to notice, and consider, if I look around?

This thread has greatly expanded that simple interpretation into so many other possibilities!

Now, with pondering the wand that is "attached", and stable, is that the wand to choose? The place to focus energy? Or was that wand just erected as a flag pole that is part of the plan to move forward with the worldly plans? Or is it the old stale option that needs to be replaced? or ?..... or ?..... ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by re-pete-a View Post
It is not a ring,which is a full circle, it is a clamp ,a fixing device.....

As with all Tarot , it is what you feel it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenest View Post
Also IMO a card meaning is not just " what you feel it is. " Otherwise one is liable to come up with all sorts of .....

One would hope that any 'intuitive meaning' deepens or enlightens any inherent meaning or symbolism that the deck is supposed to have (otherwise one could just use inkblot cards).
That is one of the awesome things about the Tarot:
"It is what you feel it is."
So, if you feel it is different from that, and this other way instead, then that too is fine, for it is what resonates with you. Then that other thing fits:"It is what you feel it is."
If something does not resonate, you can let it go. That is the beauty of the cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samweiss View Post
What I've always found meaningful in the picture of this card are the crossed rose and lily in the lower left corner. The red rose represents desire and the white lily purity. Also, according to symbolism by P.F. Case, roses represent number 5 (Man/Pentagram) and lilies represent number 6 (Macrocosm/Hexagram). Kinda relates to what you're saying here, ravenest. I really liked your view on it.
When I received the recently released Alice Tarot, I read something in a study of the Alice in Wonderland book that the rose and the lily had to do with 2 of the powerful families in Great Britain back in the ?1800s? Was Tudor a family last name?

So there can be so many interpretations that any one symbol can have, AND with the best decks the interpretations change according to that particular reading on that particular day, with those particular surrounding cards, etc....
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I disagree strongly with the 'awesome' aspect of tarot being 'it is what you feel it is'. When did that become part of tarot ... I believe people made it up under the mistaken (and rather unawesome idea ) that as long as they use some imagined semi-magical facility they cant be wrong.

They seem to think, as long as you 'feel something' you cant be wrong. If I 'feel' it is a ring then it isnt a clamp ? Its interesting that a statement about what something IS is immediately followed by one that says something can be whatever you feel it is. Notice any discrepancy there?

As I said above ; then, you may as well use inkblots.

If a card can have a valid meaning that is whatever you think it is, why not use inkblot cards, or playing cards or beer coasters ?

I dont get it .... never have ... it seems that view just hasnt thought things through.

I do not ascribe to the view that 'intuition' * is the Holy Grail of tarot interpretation.

One view seems to think that whatever idea they can come up with must be relevant to the cards in question ... and that is it . The other view is one can be right and wrong and people examine details, links, opinions, the philosophy of the deck creator (if they have one), discuss and debate it amongst themselves, argue their case, adopt new ideas that can be shown or demonstrated to be relevant to meanings, or not, look at the internal logic of a person's argument or viewpoint, etc. ... I notice those with the first view often do not like this process or cant engage in it .... or get angry about it, attack the process or feel attacked themselves.


There is an example of that message in this card. - The Lord of Dominion. There are two aspects; the macro and the micro .... Universal Will and individual will .... a cards meaning and ones interpretation .... archetype and expression .... template and design

* And it has been shown in many different threads time and time again here that most that ascribe to the first view, dont even have a realistic concept of what intuition is or how it works. - There are at least 3 very long and detailed threads here on the subject of intuition, referenced to academic papers and studies on it, some by long term members and readers, or well, known Tarot authors.
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In my opinion, the basic meanings of a card should be known, but these also act as a springboard to other ideas. The cards that appear are for the reader to interpret, and the reader will interpret from their own base of knowledge and understanding - their personal associations with symbols. Therefore personal research into symbolism, astrology etc will give the reader a catalogue of meanings for each card. Whichever 'file' happens to pop up at the time can give the card a meaning different to that which is commonly ascribed, but fits the symbol that the reader is fixing on (it may be a colour, a position that someone is facing, an object within the image).

A ring can be a sign of commitment, eternity, karma or many other things, depending on your experience of it. A clamp can be a device that affixes something to something else, so it could be commitment too - a ring and clamp can both hold something in place - the clamp physically, the ring emotionally. But the clamp could also be a form of assistance, holding something up - or negatively, holding something down.
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Thats interesting JG ... a clamp holds the right staff in place ... in the same position on the other side is the ' 5:6 banner'.

Such elevent postulations IMO can reveal potentials within the field of the card. I believe certain potential relationships to a cards general meaning (things like you describe; pop up file ... I like that * ) emerge in context of a reading with relationship to other cards.


* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baO7p3yVYFY
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This fellow's living in a state of delusion. His life force is attached to the structure he's built, and on which he relies for security. The structure also represents his past accomplishments. The rod attached to the wall isn't permanent, it can be removed much like the nooses around the necks of the couple in The Devil. He's projecting his remaining life force into the future and is absorbed with worldly accomplishment. He's never taken the time to become still and consider anything other than material gain. "...it looks like the malady, the mortification, the sadness of Alexander amidst the grandeur of this world's wealth." as Waite puts it.

The key to fully-understanding Waite and Smith's meaning can be found in the Rose and Lily emblem. It is the Rose of Sharon and Lily of the Valley.

In the Opening of the Golden Dawn's Ceremony of the Zelator Grade (1=10), there is the following exchange:
Hierophant: Let the Element of this Grade be named that it may be awakened in the spheres of those present and in the sphere of the Order.

Hegemon: The Element of Earth.

Hiereus: (Knocks) Let us adore the Lord and King of Earth.

All face East.

Hierophant: ADONAI HA-ARETZ. ADONAI MELEKH. Unto Thee be the Kingdom and the Power (cross on self) and the Glory. MALKUTH, GEBURAH, GEDULAH. (He makes Cross and Circle with Scepter before him as he says MALKUTH, etc.) The Rose of Sharon and the Lily of the Valley, Amen.
Let's break this down...
ADONAI HA-ARETZ is "Lord of all the Earth."

ADONAI MELEKH is "Lord and King."
"Unto Thee be the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory. MALKUTH, GEBURAH, GEDULAH."
MALKUTH is "Kingdom."

GEBURAH is "Power."

GEDULAH is "Glory."
Notice the sign of the cross is made two times by the Hierophant. Then observe Waite's description, "The Rose and Cross and Lily should be noticed on the left side." He says specifically, a Rose and Cross and Lily.

Here's a picture of the Waite/Smith Two of Wands compared side-by-side with the GD's:

Two Wands

The W/S cross is identical with the two wands on the Gd's. In the W/S emblem, there are Roses at the ends of one wand and Lilies at the ends of the other. Together they represent the "Rose of Sharon and Lilly of the Valley."

In the GD ceremony above, the Rose of Sharon and Lily of the Valley are references to the "Lord and King of Earth" referred to as ADONAI HA-ARETZ and ADONAI MELEKH, or "Lord of Dominion" if you will.

This is a lot to take in, but after meditating on it, I believe the Rose/Lily is there to say, there is more to be found beyond the material for those willing to seek it.
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That is a very earth based interpretation for a ( fire ) wand .
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