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Which 10 is 'higher'?

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jillkite  jillkite is offline
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wow! this thread is getting intense for my head (that always happens whenever i look at Kaballah....)

in my much more simplistic view, just looking at the cards (yes, i am only talking about RWS), it seems that the 10 of Cups is about Spiritual and Emotional fulfillment with little regard for the material realm, other than being comfortable.
whereas the 10 of Pents is about material abundance and prosperity as well as emotional happiness.
both have happy families, so emotional fulfillment, but Cups shows more spiritual consciousness and Pents shows more material accomplishments.

is there an underlying suggestion or assumption that spiritual consciousness and material success do not go together? did the GD have a position on this?

would love to hear some more thoughts about this.... please try to keep it simple if you can! not too many esoteric words would be great for me i'm not trying to limit anyones expression though as others may 'get it' but perhaps there be a very simplistic summary about any Kabbalistic references to go alongside the detailed version....? thanks!
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Material well being is not measured by how much money and things you have in your possession, but it is a measure of your satisfaction with what you do have. This goes hand in hand with emotional well being. The material world and what you call 'spiritual' are not really in conflict with one another. This is a misconception found in the teachings of certain religions and new age groups. However, it is an illusion.
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I see the Ten of Cups contentment, regardless of circumstances. I don't see in it any regard for the material realm at all. It simply illustrates a state of contentment.

The Ten of Pentacles illustrates material riches. I don't see anything in it that suggests the people are content or discontented, but they're wealthy.

I'm not sure about the GD, but Waite suggests there is an upside as well as a downside to wealth. For example his comment on the Two of Wands:

"here is a lord overlooking his dominion and alternately contemplating a globe; it looks like the malady, the mortification, the sadness of Alexander amidst the grandeur of this world's wealth."

and the Ace of Pentacles:

"Reversed: The evil side of wealth...."

As far as which is higher, to me the Ten of Cups is better since it's contentment in all circumstances. Wealth is a good thing if it's used constructively, but it can have a really bad downside. If the Ten of Pentacles comes up in a reading, I think its meaning would depend on how it's modified by the other cards.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abrac View Post
The Ten of Pentacles illustrates material riches. I don't see anything in it that suggests the people are content or discontented, but they're wealthy.
i see the fact that the couple are dancing together and the little boy shows affection towards his parents as well as the dogs, and the grandad also giving affection to the dogs, as signs of a good emotional state, as well as material state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abrac View Post
Wealth is a good thing if it's used constructively, but it can have a really bad downside. If the Ten of Pentacles comes up in a reading, I think its meaning would depend on how it's modified by the other cards.
Yes, i see this with the King of Pents also. Generally positive but a definite need for care and attention to make wealth constructive.
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Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
Material well being is not measured by how much money and things you have in your possession, but it is a measure of your satisfaction with what you do have. This goes hand in hand with emotional well being.
yes
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This is just my personal opinion, but it is based on Qabalistic concepts. The Tarot Tens represent aspects of the elements in Sephirah 10, which is the ultimate emanation of 'God,' the everyday physical world. The dominant element in the physical world is solid physical matter (including the human body), which is Pentacles, so I would say that it is the 'highest' suit among the Tens. This is only a value judgment from a Qabalistic perspective. Other approaches might suggest Cups or Wands.

(For Closrapexa: Pentacles characterize Assiah, of which Malkuth (10) is the Sephirah.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRichard View Post
(For Closrapexa: Pentacles characterize Assiah, of which Malkuth (10) is the Sephirah.)
Yeah, I didn't explain my kabballistic bull well, for once. I didn't mean Cups were both Heh primary as well as Heh final, but you know, vessels, Ain Sof Aur, upper and lower reflections, etc. Also, maybe I was erroneously transposing a bit of "Love under Will" where it didn't belong. (:

I dunno...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jillkite View Post
From the teaching i was given (Rider Waite) and my own feeling, i always considered the 10 of Cups to be the 'highest' 10, symbolising emotional fulfillment and spiritual connection, with an attitude of gratitude.
When the 10 of wands is the 'highest' as suggested in this topic we might see the 10 of cups as 'the endless'?

The x on the 10 of cups is no Roman X with vertical lines as the others.. it is open both above and below...
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It totally depends on what you mean by "higher" and then it will just be a matter of opinion. The closest we'll probably ever come to Waite's opinion is through his writings on the "Four Worlds" of the Kabbalah and on the Tetragrammaton. Wands (Yod) is associated with Atziluth, Cups (1st He) with Briah, Swords (Vau) with Yetzirah, and Pentacles (2nd He) with Assiah. According to these associations they can be roughly placed on the Tree of Life such that Yod is at the highest point. But to call that "higher" than the others would be a grave mistake since they each are necessary to the others.

The 10 of Pentacles is the culmination of the whole deck - all that has gone before. It contains Waite's initials and depicts the "Ancient of Days."

The 10 of Wands card shows potential run amok: fortune, gain, success and the oppression of those things, as Waite notes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teheuti View Post

The 10 of Wands card shows potential run amok: fortune, gain, success and the oppression of those things, as Waite notes.
I like that.

" For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander to thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander to thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister to thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee."

hence the 10 of wands - 'Oppression' .

Although, back in post-Victorian times the 'oppression' of the fire/spirit in Man was still being addressed, I feel todays issue lies more in 'Assiah' and indeed ...

'Money doth have power over thee'. (well , not you ... I meant Western Social Paradigm - Economic 'Rationalism' , etc )
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