Thoth Pips

Barleywine

closrapexa said:
I feel it is pretty obvious that Crowley did, in fact, consult the Picatrix, although I have no proof of it, only echoes of similarity. :)
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The Picatrix is on my "must buy" list. I came across this interesting quote in Donald Tyson's "Biographical Dictionary" appended to Agrippa's "Three Books of Occult Philosophy."

"One of its most interesting elements" (the Picatrix, that is) "is its attribution of anthropomorphic figures to the 36 decans of the zodiac."

So it looks like each "pip" card would have a human personification as well. I wonder how that relates to the Court cards (if, indeed, it does). Perhaps they (the "pip people") would be cup-bearers or spear-carriers for the royalty. At least one of them (the Courts, that is) might be better served by a "royal food-taster." (ack, there I go, free-associating again :D)

ETA: It looks like I have what you have, in a different form. Chapter XXXVII of Agrippa's Book II, titled "Of the images of the Faces, and of those images that are without the Zodiac" has this: "Therefore it is said, that in the first face of Aries, ascendeth the image of a black man, standing and clothed in a white garment, girdled about, of a great body, with reddish eyes, and great strength, and like one that is angry; and this image signifieth and causeth boldness, fortitude, loftiness and shamelessness."

Sound familiar?
 

Barleywine

closrapexa said:
I feel it is pretty obvious that Crowley did, in fact, consult the Picatrix, although I have no proof of it, only echoes of similarity. :)
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Perhaps no proof, but some pretty credible evidence. Here is the description I found in Agrippa for the first Face (decanate) of Leo. Since it appears from your earlier example that Agrippa tapped the Picatrix for his massive occult compendium, I find it improbable that Crowley didn't have this description in his "mind's eye" when he was formulating his Lust card. It's radically different from a woman opening (or closing, depending on who you read) the jaws of a lion.

“A man riding on a lion; boldness, violence, cruelty, wickedness, lust and labours to be sustained.”

ETA: I'm putting together a "cheat sheet" of all the Minor Arcana with their Thoth titles, the associated decanates, the assigned planets, an indication of which Aces and Court cards "preside" over them, and the associated quotes as above. These vivid images don't seem like the type that would be profitable to try to memorize the correspondences for; it would kind of flatten or "starch" them.
 

ravenest

Barleywine said:
ETA: It looks like I have what you have, in a different form. Chapter XXXVII of Agrippa's Book II, titled "Of the images of the Faces, and of those images that are without the Zodiac" has this: "Therefore it is said, that in the first face of Aries, ascendeth the image of a black man, standing and clothed in a white garment, girdled about, of a great body, with reddish eyes, and great strength, and like one that is angry; and this image signifieth and causeth boldness, fortitude, loftiness and shamelessness."
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"Therefore it is said ..." A pity Agrippa didnt elaborate on what lead to 'therefore' ... therefore should be a conclusive statement that follows something previously set out.

In any case, 'those images that are without the Zodiac " (set out at the end of that chapter) seem to have been incorporated into the GD astrology and found their way into the Book of Thoth (in a brief unexplained chart - not the only case of such).

We seem to be able to track pips back to decans and look at the faces as influence ... but how did the faces or images come to get their qualities? If a 'face' can be 'over-ruled' or modified by a Kabbalistic association, why not leave the faces out all together and just go from the astrological energy associated with that decan (instead of the image)? IN many cases they slot in with the cards associated energy quiet well.

(I know thats not the exercise here , but IMO there seems a hole or a gap {probably in my studies} where this astrological info passed; from the influence of stars in a decan on a planet, to an 'image' or face in the Picatrix, Ibn Ezra, etc. I dont think AC or GD went much beyond that - except for vague references to 'The Chaldeans'.)
 

Zephyros

I would guess they are very old, maybe even so obvious and traditional Agrippa didn't even feel the need to elaborate. The GD seemed to respect traditions, and Crowley himself knowingly tried to incorporate as many of them into the deck as he could. They seem to be magickal images, meant for contemplation, probably at suitable times of the year when they would be most effective.

Scion discusses their magickal properties at length in his guide (I don't actually own the books mentioned) although I am pretty sure he removed it from circulation, pending his expanded book on the subject.
 

Barleywine

ravenest said:
We seem to be able to track pips back to decans and look at the faces as influence ... but how did the faces or images come to get their qualities? If a 'face' can be 'over-ruled' or modified by a Kabbalistic association, why not leave the faces out all together and just go from the astrological energy associated with that decan (instead of the image)? IN many cases they slot in with the cards associated energy quiet well.
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Isn't there some confusion here? Ptolemy used the word "face" in Tetrabiblos back in the 1st century CE to describe the relationship of a planet to the Sun or Moon, as in a planet being in its "proper face" when situated in a particular region of the zodiac. As I understand it, face is just another name for decanate (Agrippa cites Ptolemy but gets it wrong when saying that they are 5-degree divisions). I don't think they originally had anything to do with the "anthropomorphic" images we've been discussing, since the Picatrix came from the 10th or 11th century CE. Thus, using "faces" as Ptolemy portrayed them in his tables IS in fact using their astrological energies directly. Avelar and Ribeiro state that faces "serve to detail behavioral differences of the signs," which sounds like how Crowley applied them. Unfortunately, Tetrabiblos is very sparse on amplifying detail; that was left up to later writers.
 

Aeon418

Barleywine said:
I find it improbable that Crowley didn't have this description in his "mind's eye" when he was formulating his Lust card. It's radically different from a woman opening (or closing, depending on who you read) the jaws of a lion.
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Possibly. But a greater influence was undoubtedly Crowley's visionary work with the Enochian system in 1909, documented in Liber 418: The Vision and the Voice. Much of the Thoth Tarot's imagery is inspired by, or directly drawn from those 30 visions.

Liber 418 said:
Though an Angel in white robes leadeth me, - who shall ride upon me but the Woman of Abominations?
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Liber 418 said:
The charioteer speaks in a low, solemn voice, awe-inspiring, like a large and very distant bell: Let him look upon the cup whose blood is mingled therein, for the wine of the cup is the blood of the saints. Glory unto the Scarlet Woman, Babylon the Mother of Abominations, that rideth upon the Beast, for she hath spilt their blood in every corner of the earth and lo! she hath mingled it in the cup of her whoredom.
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Barleywine

Aeon418 said:
Possibly. But a greater influence was undoubtedly Crowley's visionary work with the Enochian system in 1909, documented in Liber 418: The Vision and the Voice. Much of the Thoth Tarot's imagery is inspired by, or directly drawn from those 30 visions.
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Agreed. Aside from the Book of the Law and its four or five "core" principles, I always found The Vision and the Voice to be his most memorable and inspired writing.
 

ravenest

Barleywine said:
Isn't there some confusion here? Ptolemy used the word "face" in Tetrabiblos back in the 1st century CE to describe the relationship of a planet to the Sun or Moon, as in a planet being in its "proper face" when situated in a particular region of the zodiac. As I understand it, face is just another name for decanate (Agrippa cites Ptolemy but gets it wrong when saying that they are 5-degree divisions). I don't think they originally had anything to do with the "anthropomorphic" images we've been discussing, since the Picatrix came from the 10th or 11th century CE. Thus, using "faces" as Ptolemy portrayed them in his tables IS in fact using their astrological energies directly. Avelar and Ribeiro state that faces "serve to detail behavioral differences of the signs," which sounds like how Crowley applied them. Unfortunately, Tetrabiblos is very sparse on amplifying detail; that was left up to later writers.
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Sorry, I will try again without that term, I should have just said 'image of the decan' (as given in the picatrix, Ibn Ezra, etc - sorry dont know the term, I will call it 'image' ).

We seem to be able to track pips back to decan images and, at times, can see that influence in the card ... but how did these images come to get their qualities? If an image can be 'over-ruled' or modified by a Kabbalistic association, why not leave that out all together and just go from the astrological energy associated with that decan (instead of the image)? In many cases they slot in with the cards associated energy quiet well.

What I mean is; we can say a particular card has a meaning of strength and the decanic image is a strong man, so we may say the card fits the decan, if the decanic image is a at odds, it is said that the Kabbalistic associations might have over ruled the astrological ones. MY question is; where did that decanic image come from in the first place, why was that decan (in the picatrix or elsewhere) given that image, it must have been drawn from some astrological influence ? MY pondering isl why not use the astrological energy of the decan instead of its image.

I postulate that a decan's energy comes about due to the influence of significant stars in that decan. Although this doesnt always work out ... but at times, it does align with the card meaning when the image does not.

(I hope that was clearer ... and not more confusion? )
 
Why should I use the thoth tarot for divination Magical Correspondances.