Who's for giving "the Gypsies" their due?

All it takes is a wink

Fulgour said:

Hi Talisman! I'm new in town (just passing through)
and I wondered if you'd like to make a trade for some
of that paper I see you have there... no, no~ no dye,
we have our own, do lots of patterened fabric y'know.

Nice paper you got, too! Laying all around here in piles
so nice and handy. You must sell a lot? Wanna trade?

We're having a party tonight, just outside of town!

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Well, if a pretty Gypsy woman winks at me she may, against all odds, capture my heart. I'm attracted by the campfires and the wild music . . .

And there ain't nuthin' wrong with romance -- and romantic theories.

Can a skeptic dance too ?

~ Talisman

My studies have continued, with a very regular encounter
with contradictory histories~ they contradict themselves!

Again and again the "Gypsies" are mentioned, and placed in
the right place at the right time ~ as they continued to be,
then the wise and knowing (smug?) authors dismiss them...

Was "tarot" a game invented for Italian noblemen? Sure yeah.
Did the ancient and mysterious Rom have a big hand in it all...
not if you're trying to make the world over as being european.

I had a very encouraging PM from an enthusiastic friend too.
Perhaps he will post a few thoughts here to share with us?

origins

Unlike chess, there are no Chinese or South Asian variants of Tarot, I believe.
Has anyone out there encountered any evidence of a non-European deck prior to the 20th C.?

hi katong1 [Post #1 April 27,2006]

Welcome to Aeclectic Tarot!

I like to go back far enough in my thinking to start fresh,
and then work forward... what exists 'now' is referential.
So~ if you start Tarot from every possible point of origin
and then filter it through various cultures up to the 'now'
it becomes easier to see it without its Historical context.

But what about the Mameluk cards?

I am pretty sure there have been playing cards in India or China before 14th century. I am just starting dipping into some serious historical tarot researches so I cannot give evidence, it is just a kind of gut feeling. Playing strategic games are part of Indian and Chinese culture so I think it probable that there have been card plays or something similar to tarot.

And what about Arabian Naib?

Ok, I have still an issue with the idea of the Rom/Sinti or whoever being the first ones to have playing cards in the elaborate way and looks of today's tarot decks in their saddle bags but I think they may well have come across sometime later to playing cards and have used them for divination purpose to get money out of the gadsche purse

This is really kind of turning into a dead horse.

No one disputes that the mamluk naibs came first. The indian ganjifa cards, on the other hand, may well have come later.

But the existance of playing cards out side of Europe has no more bearing on the development of the tarot than that fact that the chinese had religon and sang does on the development of the motet: *elements* appear elsewhere, but *tarot* appears only in Europe.
There'd be no reason for a tarot elsewhere anyway: tarot is always and only a trick-taking game with trump. The ganjifa card games are without trump, and it's likely the muslim cards were without trump either (since no european game before tarot had trump, with the wierd exception of kaiserspiel). The Chinese card games weren't even about tricks; they're rummies.

Until Fulgour produces a full deck of tarot cards from before 1400 from somewhere between India and Egypt, this is nothing more than an interesting fantasy.

Goodby.

MikeTheAltarboy said:

This is really kind of turning into a dead horse.

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But you've been so helpful and supportive!
I'm sorry your leaving us. Goodby. Goodby.

.

.....

There is actually a TOPIC to this thread...

zazen said:

Mike ... he's only rattling your chain, as mum used to say .. 'Just ignore him'

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Thanks! If you go back and look~ Mike has been obsessed with
coming on this thread and going against the spirit of it all along.
I enjoyed his comments, but why does he keep repeating them?

He disagrees, he said so. The title of this thread was phrased as
an INVITATION not a declaration. So then, whose rattling whom?

"But the existance of playing cards out side of Europe has no more bearing on the development of the tarot than that fact that the chinese had religon and sang does on the development of the motet: *elements* appear elsewhere, but *tarot* appears only in Europe."

Right (or, as a Chinese would put it, "duile!")! I appreciate the ahistorical values and interpretation, but my inquiry is as to the historical provenance. My opinion is that there is little evidence of anything but a European source.