Who's for giving "the Gypsies" their due?

Whoa.. The gypsies and tarot!!!!!!! Sounds like a good combination..

Lee said:

I don't think Fulgour seriously believes that the Rom invented tarot. I think he's just having fun with us, once again, and that his post should be taken in that light.

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My main problem here is making an "intelligent" argument
in favour of an ancient, nomadic peoples, whose origins
have been forever covered over and even obliterated by
historians with an axe to grind... we do not even know
who these people were. I can imagine many folks with
a spirit of adventure freely joining these travellers to
break away from the dull bonds of farm and village...
anyone might have 'run away' and joined the groups.

Yes, cards have a clear history, and Tarot has roots.
But look at things with a twinkling eye and see ~
who is telling the story and what are their motives?

American Indian culture vanished in a few centuries,
and by the time Europeans began keeping records of
"traditions and beliefs" they had all been transformed.

Rogan said:

I think this could turn into a difficult discussion...
To be called a gypsy in many european cultures is an absolute insult to breeding and personal worth... Are you referring to The Roma?

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Should we fall into the trap of being "Politically Correct" here?
There might be a hundred expletives put in front of Gypsies,
or one could generously praise the great heritage of The Rom.

The basic argument is this: Who do we believe... and why?
As often as not, people attributed Tarot to this very group.

The same group of people that first attributed tarot to the "gypsies" were also busy seeing freemasonry descending in unbroken succession from the pharoehs, the druids as lost hebrews, and any number of other questionable historical hypotheses. I'll tell you who I *don't* believe, and that's 19th century "scholars" on esoteric subjects. Paul Christian didn't hesitate to forge quotes by Iamblicus, Iolo Morgannwg didn't hesitate to forge entire books and attribute them to the Druids, And M. Vaillant is the only "gyspy folklorist" to have ever said that they used tarot cards. He only wanted it to be true because if the cards are supposed to come to us from ancient egypt, we need ancient egyptians - gypsies - to bring them. 'Nuff said.

While we certainly can't know who *all* the Roma people were, we can say with reasonably certainty that as a cultural-linquistic group, they come from the orient. The language is Indic and bits of the "superstitions" that have survived under conversion to local religions seem to betray a Hindu source.

Now the indians *do* have playing cards also - and they bear some relationship to ours. But they are *not* tarot decks. That fact seems to indicate a European origin for tarot.

I think it's remotely possible that the tarot came from India. The evidence weighs to Italy, but there's no definitive proof. Many things, including chess, were invented in India or the Far East (and chess arrived before the gypsies). By the way, "The World of Tarot" by Sergius Golowin discusses an India origin for tarot.

The Paper Trail

Have you ever made paper at home? It's very easy!
Of course paper mills and printing presses provide
a steady flow of products, and 'neat' history books.

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Roma and Sinti : Gypsies
http://www.factspider.com/gy/gypsies.html
©2005 by factspider.com

The Roma (or Romany) and Sinti (also called Kalé)
are nomadic peoples found throughout Europe.

Roma and Sinti were widely believed to have psychic powers
(see the popular stereotype of the Gypsy fortune-teller),
and some romantics attribute the invention of the Tarot cards
to them. This may reflect the belief that the Rom and Sinti,
being of Egyptian origin, had knowledge of lost arts and
sciences of the ancient Egyptians.

The term, Gypsy, has long been associated with persecution
and fails to recognize that the Roma and Sinti form distinct
(although socio-economically related) groups.

Cool!

northsea said:

By the way, "The World of Tarot" by Sergius Golowin
discusses an India origin for tarot.

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World of the Tarot: The Gypsy Method of Reading the Tarot
by Sergius Golowin
Paperback, 252 pages
Red Wheel/Weiser January 1988
ISBN 0877286426
http://www.fetchbook.info/compare.do?search=0877286426

And I wonder how many people who know all about
CHESS actually play the game with any regularity?
I've got the Hastings set from House of Staunton!
http://www.houseofstaunton.com/

*

PS: I entered "Gypsy" as a search word on eBay
and got 9300+ hits: clothing, jewelry, and music.

northsea,

"When the origin of a thing is remote or mysterious, it has been the custom to attribute it to the Devil or to Asia." - W. G. Benham

We know chess (at least in something like the modern form) came from persia; that much is certain. We have ancient texts refering to it and describing it, and we have ancient pieces. India seems likely source.

No tarot deck has *ever* been found *anywhere* but europe, nor has any tarot deck been *refered* to outside of europe, 19th c fraud not withstanding.

The trumps themselves cry out "renaissance europe!" Hi, emperor and empress with the imperial eagle, popes and (western) virtues, and a final card that either shows the New Jerusalem or Christ or Sophia in Majesty. India seems *unlikely.*

I'm already familiar with that information, but still "perceive" a remote possibility.

When in Rome...

MikeTheAltarboy said:

The trumps themselves cry out "renaissance europe!" Hi, emperor and empress with the imperial eagle, popes and (western) virtues, and a final card that either shows the New Jerusalem or Christ or Sophia in Majesty. India seems *unlikely.*

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I'd venture here that anyone, living 'within' a culture,
soon learns to use the visual language there as well,
which of course does not include the final card being
the New Jerusalem or Christ or Sophia in Majesty.