Do you find the Lenormand to be counter-intuitive?

Richard

I have not touched Lenormand since locking horns with Lenormand traditionalists, who do not even agree among themselves about what constitutes THE 'tradition' but insist that the differences among them are so slight as to be negligible. However, I'm sure they would all agree that I was reading a watered-down oracle deck, not the 'real' Lenormand. I was informed that the strict rule is that you 'read' neither the images nor the card titles, but use only a memorized set of keywords. Intuition is admissible only insofar as it is based on the keywords, not the images or titles. Yet, they themselves mostly use the pretty picture cards with titles instead of the truncated playing card deck presumably used by Marie Lenormand herself.

For myself, I found the Lenormand card images to be profoundly evocative and conducive to intuitive reading, but after being sternly informed that this is the wrong way to go about it (more than one expert even implying that such a reading method is, in effect, undermining the integrity of the Lenormand tradition), I put the cards away with such profound disgust that I have not touched them since.

Such a strict traditionalist attitude reminds me of the 'born again' religious extremists, who (apparently with love and concern) insist that there is only one correct belief that will save one from the fires of hell. Thank god that my god is not such a stickler for details.

I intend no disrespect to the traditionalists, of course, just bewilderment. Now I automatically associate the cards with a rigid orthodoxy (to which I am allergic on principle).
 

pluto'sapprentice258

I have not touched Lenormand since locking horns with Lenormand traditionalists, who do not even agree among themselves about what constitutes THE 'tradition' but insist that the differences among them are so slight as to be negligible. However, I'm sure they would all agree that I was reading a watered-down oracle deck, not the 'real' Lenormand. I was informed that the strict rule is that you 'read' neither the images nor the card titles, but use only a memorized set of keywords. Intuition is admissible only insofar as it is based on the keywords, not the images or titles. Yet, they themselves mostly use the pretty picture cards with titles instead of the truncated playing card deck presumably used by Marie Lenormand herself.

For myself, I found the Lenormand card images to be profoundly evocative and conducive to intuitive reading, but after being sternly informed that this is the wrong way to go about it (more than one expert even implying that such a reading method is, in effect, undermining the integrity of the Lenormand tradition), I put the cards away with such profound disgust that I have not touched them since.

Such a strict traditionalist attitude reminds me of the 'born again' religious extremists, who (apparently with love and concern) insist that there is only one correct belief that will save one from the fires of hell. Thank god that my god is not such a stickler for details.

I intend no disrespect to the traditionalists, of course, just bewilderment. Now I automatically associate the cards with a rigid orthodoxy (to which I am allergic on principle).

Oh, Richard...your story really tugged at my heartstrings, man. I was so sad to read that these so called 'experts' and 'teachers' informed you that your reading method was wrong.

I now realise how lucky I was to avoid these staunch traditionalists when I began to learn, as had I, like you, been told I wasn't supposed to use my intuition to interpret a set of symbols I'd have asked when the next train out of crazy town was!

I loved what you said about 'one correct belief that will save one from the fires of hell'. It reminded me of the film 'Dogma', in which Rufus (13th Apostle played by Chris Rock...lol) says it's healthier to have ideas rather than beliefs, because it's easier to change an idea :D

I learned traditional meanings, sure I did, but I still find scope to be super creative. It's what YOU make it :D

love little p
 

GryffinSong

LRichard, I very quickly found myself putting the lenormand aside because of the traditionalists. I'm reminded of the phrase "don't should on yourself." I'm still getting over that experience, and am insistent on only using "cluttered" decks like the Melissa, and Natalie Rose, in order to shake off the insistence on just reading in one specific way. I still have some "shoulds" in my head about lenormand, but darn it, some people read tea leaves, or pieces of junk, or lines in the sand at a beach. A lenormand is a set of images on cardstock. We can read them any way we please!
 

Padma

I have not touched Lenormand since locking horns with Lenormand traditionalists, who do not even agree among themselves about what constitutes THE 'tradition' but insist that the differences among them are so slight as to be negligible. However, I'm sure they would all agree that I was reading a watered-down oracle deck, not the 'real' Lenormand. I was informed that the strict rule is that you 'read' neither the images nor the card titles, but use only a memorized set of keywords. Intuition is admissible only insofar as it is based on the keywords, not the images or titles. Yet, they themselves mostly use the pretty picture cards with titles instead of the truncated playing card deck presumably used by Marie Lenormand herself.

For myself, I found the Lenormand card images to be profoundly evocative and conducive to intuitive reading, but after being sternly informed that this is the wrong way to go about it (more than one expert even implying that such a reading method is, in effect, undermining the integrity of the Lenormand tradition), I put the cards away with such profound disgust that I have not touched them since.

Such a strict traditionalist attitude reminds me of the 'born again' religious extremists, who (apparently with love and concern) insist that there is only one correct belief that will save one from the fires of hell. Thank god that my god is not such a stickler for details.

I intend no disrespect to the traditionalists, of course, just bewilderment. Now I automatically associate the cards with a rigid orthodoxy (to which I am allergic on principle).

So likely then, it is time you dust off your Lennies, and set to with a will ;) I use intuition when reading with mine, and have been very accurate in many ways with it. A thing is what you make it. So make it yours :love:
 

Teheuti

I was never made aware of this dispute between traditional reading and intuition - I took it for granted that naturally, intuition would feature strongly in the practice of reading Lenormand - as I feel it should when using any Divination tool, or have I missed something?
To contrast intuitive readers with traditional readers doesn't work for me. Traditional readers use intuition just as much as non-traditional readers. Intuition is a normal human mental process - a natural way of arriving at information. It is often contrasted with a step-by-step rational analysis. Traditional readers tend to be "both/and".

One group emphasizes learning a specific language and grammar that is, more-or-less, understood by other users of the language, It serves as one tool when reading the cards. The other group emphasizes the semi-conscious personal associations that are often informed by broader cultural associations but may or may not accord with anyone else's use or understanding of the cards.

So far there has been no scientific testing to see if one method is more accurate than another. It is entirely a matter of preference.

Traditional readers first learn a 'vocabulary' and method of step-by-step analysis and, once learned, it instantaneously and instinctively feeds into the intuitive process. It also serves as a check point to see what may have been overlooked when receiving intuitive impressions.
 

Teheuti

I'm sure they would all agree that I was reading a watered-down oracle deck, not the 'real' Lenormand.
I'm a traditionalist and I wouldn't say that. I certainly wouldn't use the word or concept of watered-down (that's your perception). I personally contrast the technique of reading as more oracle-like versus traditional, just because we don't have a precise term for the difference. To say that one is intuitive while the other isn't is just not true.

I was informed that the strict rule is that you 'read' neither the images nor the card titles, but use only a memorized set of keywords. Intuition is admissible only insofar as it is based on the keywords, not the images or titles.
You were misinformed, but it's understandable. It's more like learning the basics of a language before you try writing poetry in that language (and try to communicate it to other speakers of that language). You can always write poetry in any language you wish.

Yet, they themselves mostly use the pretty picture cards with titles instead of the truncated playing card deck presumably used by Marie Lenormand herself.
Most people who have learned about the Petit Lenormand deck over the past few years know that Mlle. Lenormand had nothing to do with the deck, which according to all evidence comes from Germany after the death of Mlle. Lenormand, and is based on late 18th century German fortune-telling decks. The cartomantic tradition from which the card-image associations derive is a German one using German-suited decks similar to Schafkopf cards. The meanings are totally different than the English and French cartomantic meanings.

For myself, I found the Lenormand card images to be profoundly evocative and conducive to intuitive reading, but after being sternly informed that this is the wrong way to go about it (more than one expert even implying that such a reading method is, in effect, undermining the integrity of the Lenormand tradition), I put the cards away with such profound disgust that I have not touched them since.
It must be very sad and painful to put aside something that spoke so evocatively to you and to experience your interest turning to disgust. People sometimes speak in ways that are distressing to others. I can only wish there was some way you could overcome your feelings of disgust and rekindle the evocative relationship you had with your cards.

Such a strict traditionalist attitude reminds me of the 'born again' religious extremists, who (apparently with love and concern) insist that there is only one correct belief that will save one from the fires of hell.
I can understand how you would feel like that and for some people it may be like a religion. For me, the attitude of some traditionalist Lenormand readers is more similar to those who insist that one learn to speak a foreign language and use customs correctly. Yet it is obvious that most people can get a meal in another country quite adequately with just a few words and by pointing and using signs (and there's every combination of fluency in between). It all depends on the desires and needs of the individual.

The cards themselves are merely pieces of cardboard. Everything else consists of the stories we tell about them.
 

Teheuti

darn it, some people read tea leaves, or pieces of junk, or lines in the sand at a beach. A lenormand is a set of images on cardstock. We can read them any way we please!
That was EXACTLY my point when I posted here several days ago (although no one seems to have noticed what I said).

The second point that most people don't seem to get is that two things are involved:

1) a 36 card 'Lenormand' deck that people can use any way they want,

2) a Lenormand language, using this deck, with a vocabulary and structure that can be more or less understood by people who've studied it around the world (like other languages there are regional 'dialects').

It is too bad that people don't perceive that they are talking about two different approaches to the same artifact that don't mix very well together. However, 'intuition' is not really the difference that we are talking about, as both approaches use intuition.
 

Teheuti

I use intuition when reading with mine, and have been very accurate in many ways with it.
I use intuition when reading with my Lenormand deck (and I'm a fairly strict traditionalist). I've been told I'm very accurate with it. So, if that's not the difference, what is? I'd call it free-form (or oracular) versus traditional uses of the cards, but none of these terms may be quite right.
 

Richard

I use intuition when reading with my Lenormand deck (and I'm a fairly strict traditionalist). I've been told I'm very accurate with it. So, if that's not the difference, what is? I'd call it free-form (or oracular) versus traditional uses of the cards, but none of these terms may be quite right.
There is a pervasive insistence among a rather influential segment of Lenormand readers that one is not supposed to let the images or titles be the catalyst for one's intuition, because that may result in an interpretation which is contrary to the traditional meaning. However, it is perfectly acceptable to let the traditional meaning be the stimulus for the intuition.

Here is another restatement.

WRONG: To base your intuition on the card images and titles as well as the traditional meanings.

RIGHT: To base your intuition on the traditional Lenormand meanings, but not on the images or titles.
 

Richard

I'm a traditionalist and I wouldn't say that. I certainly wouldn't use the word or concept of watered-down (that's your perception). I personally contrast the technique of reading as more oracle-like versus traditional, just because we don't have a precise term for the difference. To say that one is intuitive while the other isn't is just not true.......
I'm [size=+2]not[/size] saying that one is intuitive while the other isn't.

What I have been trying to express is an observation, not an opinion of the correct way to read Lenormand. I have no wish for this to turn into an argument, which would be a colossal waste of time. I think it may be time for me to opt out of the discussion.