Conjunctions-Planet emphasis or sign emphasis?

I have a question about conjunctions that I can't seem to figure out, well I can but then I get confused. I have studied lots of charts of friends and family but its strange that not one of them gives me clues to how the conjunctions work. Maybe its me.

I realize I'm asking about one part of a chart but it's not about one person in particular. My question is about the nature of conjunctions and whether emphasis is put on the planets in conjunction or the sign the conjunction is in.

I've read that a conjunction between two fiery planets make the conjunction more fiery. But what if that conjunction is in a different element like earth or water? To me for example a conjunction between Sun and Mars, if you take just the planets, would definitely be fiery, impatient and maybe impulsive.

But that same conjunction in Pisces would not be fiery to me. Or Taurus. I can't agree that taurus sun conj taurus mars is fiery. I guess it would be a blend? maybe just less fiery than a conjunction in the air or fire signs?

Do you ignore the element of the signs? a Libra Sun conj Libra Mars would be an extra strong Libra/Air emphasis instead of the planetary "fire" emphasis?

Maybe in certain conjunctions the elements of the signs somehow override the elements of the planets?

Another example could be Moon in Aries conjunct Venus in Aries. Both planets are receptive in nature but in Aries would the element of the conjunction be fiery? Less watery or receptive? (better example for watery planets would be, say moon in Sag conjunct Neptune in Sag - watery conjunction or fiery, or a blend?)

I unfortunately can't figure it out in the charts I have thats why I'm asking all of you for your opinions.

Razzberry said:

I realize I'm asking about one part of a chart but it's not about one person in particular. My question is about the nature of conjunctions and whether emphasis is put on the planets in conjunction or the sign the conjunction is in.

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The primary emphasis is on the planets, rather than the sign. Planets are the active force in Astrology, whereas signs modify the way, or the 'capability' that planets act.

Razzberry said:

I've read that a conjunction between two fiery planets make the conjunction more fiery. But what if that conjunction is in a different element like earth or water? To me for example a conjunction between Sun and Mars, if you take just the planets, would definitely be fiery, impatient and maybe impulsive.

But that same conjunction in Pisces would not be fiery to me. Or Taurus. I can't agree that taurus sun conj taurus mars is fiery. I guess it would be a blend? maybe just less fiery than a conjunction in the air or fire signs?.....

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I don't think you'll get a clear answer to that one. or at least not the same clear answer from everyone. A conjunction or any aspect brings two or more planets together and there is some interaction between them. Exactly how that interaction works out will be the subject of a number of views. Personally, as I follow a Traditional path, the signs will modify the planets involved. Aries Sun and Mars gives you a Sun in it's exaltation and a Mars in it's rulership - both are at their best. In Pisces Mars may well be the Triplicity ruler (for Water in a night chart), the Sun may be Peregrine, so the pair don't produce the same clear focus of energy. In general terms, I'd look at the essential dignities of the planets involved to see which is stronger and how the other would be modified.

Razzberry said:

Another example could be Moon in Aries conjunct Venus in Aries. Both planets are receptive in nature but in Aries would the element of the conjunction be fiery? Less watery or receptive? (better example for watery planets would be, say moon in Sag conjunct Neptune in Sag - watery conjunction or fiery, or a blend?)

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It's not so much that Moon and Venus would be 'fiery' but that the Moon is not 'comfortable' in Aries, as she's Peregrine throughout the sign - a little in need of a pointing in the right direction. Venus is also Peregrine in Aries, except for the run from 6 degrees to 12 degrees, where she has dignity by Terms. In that case Venus might well be the 'helping hand', though not necessarily a strong one. For the rest of the sign, both are Peregrine and their 'receptive' natures is dulled somewhat.

A more modern approach might well stress the elements more than I have done, though I think it's best to look at the 'personality' or 'temperament' as a whole before you begin to look at the individual conunctions - how the Moon/Venus Aries is handled or shows up will depend a lot on that. In the modern approach you'd do a count of the elements to see which dominate in a person - so the 'fiery' person would handle or display this conjunction in a different way from a 'watery' person. Although the Tradition uses different terms, the same would hold true. A Choleric (fiery) person may just ignore their intuition or their relationship to others, a Phlegmatic (watery) person may find it difficult to handle because they feel they should be more receptive but can't see why things don't quite work out.

Conjunctions with the Sun are traditionally seen as likely to be difficult. That's because the Sun's light threatens to obliterate the other planet(s) unless it has some essential dignity or is within a few minutes of arc from the Sun. Again traditionally conjunctions with Venus and Jupiter would normally be expected to be beneficial (though this isn't always the case), whereas conjunctions with Mars or Saturn would be seen as causing problems and difficulties (again though, not always the case).

You will find other views and much depends on your approach to Astrology, that is how you see it working.

Ok thank you, I see what your saying. It makes sense also, what you said about a persons primary temperament and how they would handle a conjunction in a different element or temperament.

You mentioned conjunctions to sun being mostly difficult except for Venus and Jupiter. How about an out of sign conjunction of venus to the sun? One of my family members has sun in gemini with taurus venus conjunct at 8 deg applying. Actually also conjunction with mars, 8 deg applying. Sun is in middle of both, I remember because boy what a potty mouth, lol sun and mars are in gemini! The taurus ascendant however with venus and sun conjunct it really seems strong, so I dont know what to make of the out of sign conjunction with taurus venus and gem sun.

Do you consider out of sign conjunctions? I guess perhaps if you go by the planets energy more than the signs? or would the strongest planet influence the sun?

Razzberry said:

I have a question about conjunctions that I can't seem to figure out, well I can but then I get confused. I have studied lots of charts of friends and family but its strange that not one of them gives me clues to how the conjunctions work. Maybe its me.

I realize I'm asking about one part of a chart but it's not about one person in particular. My question is about the nature of conjunctions and whether emphasis is put on the planets in conjunction or the sign the conjunction is in.

I've read that a conjunction between two fiery planets make the conjunction more fiery. But what if that conjunction is in a different element like earth or water? To me for example a conjunction between Sun and Mars, if you take just the planets, would definitely be fiery, impatient and maybe impulsive.

But that same conjunction in Pisces would not be fiery to me. Or Taurus. I can't agree that taurus sun conj taurus mars is fiery. I guess it would be a blend? maybe just less fiery than a conjunction in the air or fire signs?

Do you ignore the element of the signs? a Libra Sun conj Libra Mars would be an extra strong Libra/Air emphasis instead of the planetary "fire" emphasis?

Maybe in certain conjunctions the elements of the signs somehow override the elements of the planets?

Another example could be Moon in Aries conjunct Venus in Aries. Both planets are receptive in nature but in Aries would the element of the conjunction be fiery? Less watery or receptive? (better example for watery planets would be, say moon in Sag conjunct Neptune in Sag - watery conjunction or fiery, or a blend?)

I unfortunately can't figure it out in the charts I have thats why I'm asking all of you for your opinions.

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In a conjunction, two (or more) planets ACT together. The energies of the planets manifest via sign. What is manifesting is the planet; how the planet manifests is the sign; and the aspect in this case shows that the planets are acting together. This does not make a statement of value about the planets (they do not necessarily "work together" for example). Planets might also be conjunct but in different signs. Compare Jupiter in Scorpio conjunct Saturn in Libra, with, say, Sun in Libra conjunct Mars in Scorpio. And then say Moon conjunct Mercury in any same sign.

Razzberry said:

Do you consider out of sign conjunctions? I guess perhaps if you go by the planets energy more than the signs? or would the strongest planet influence the sun?

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econodude said:

Planets might also be conjunct but in different signs. Compare Jupiter in Scorpio conjunct Saturn in Libra, with, say, Sun in Libra conjunct Mars in Scorpio. And then say Moon conjunct Mercury in any same sign.

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Modern Astrologers go by degrees alone when it comes to aspects and econodude gives a modern take on the situation.

Hellenistic Astrology and indeed Medieval Astrology would treat an 'out of sign conjunction' as an oxymoron. For those astrologers a conjunction had to be in the same sign, William Lilly defines a conjunction as:

'when two planets are in one and the same degree and minute of a Sign'

And herein lies the rub. It's impossible for a conjunction to be in two different signs at the same time when it perfects but the definition says nothing about application or separation.

so Jupiter at 1 degree Scorpio and Saturn at 29 degrees Libra are separating from a conjunction if they are both direct, they are not in conjunction. Astrologers still give weight to application (especially) and separation. The issue becomes how much weight if any should you place on an application or separation that involves different signs than those that will occur when the aspect is perfected. Most astrologers, both ancient and modern would give relatively little weight to the separating and now out of sign conjunction compared to an out of sign application (Jupiter in Libra and Saturn in Scorpio, both direct) though I suspect that many ancient astrologers will still give virtually no weight till the planets are both in the same sign.

Personally I think the element/quality of the aspect is an essential part of its nature. Trines for example are only so because they share the same element and a conjunction requires the planets to share the same element and quality. There is more to an aspect or conjunction than a geometrical relationship.

The only feature that I do have problems with here is in the case of Combustion - that is a conjunction with the Sun. Conjunction requires that the planet is not visible in the sky either by day or night during it's period of combustion - it never rises.

William Lilly defines combustion as:

'A planet is said to be conbust (of the Sun) when in the same Sign where the Sun is, he is not distant from the Sun eight degrees and thirty minutes'

Which requires the planets to be in the same sign. Yet for the lesser debility of being 'Under the Sun's Beams' he only mentions the requirement that the planet is within 17 degrees of the Sun.

Both Combust and Under the Beams are observable (well strictly speaking not observable ) phemomena connected to the helical rising and setting of planets. Modern Astrology pays virtually no attention to them (astrologers now prefer to look at their computers than at the sky), yet they are as much part of a planet's cycle as is being retrograde.

I must admit that I treat a planet that is within 8 degrees thirty minutes of the Sun as being combust, irrespective of whether it's in the same sign. Though as Hellenistic Astrology also allowed planets to be shielded from combustion if they are in one of their own dignities, I do make allowance for that.

Minderwiz, but you took into consideration my Moon/Saturn (Cancer/Leo), is this because the Moon is applying? In this case, as the conjunction will be perfected in Leo, should we take it as a Leo aspect and "attitude" for both planets?

Yes, there's 5 degrees of separation between the two. If it had been Jupiter and Saturn I might well have thought about it and discounted it but the Moon moves so fast and Saturn so slow that the Conjunction would be perfected in less than 12 hours. If the planetary positions were reversed and the Moon was separating by 5 degrees then I almost certainly would have ignored it.

It's also worth noting that the Moon is applying to Saturn from the Confines (or Bounds or Terms) of Saturn so there's a clear link here between the two planets that needs to be considered. That being said, I'd give it even more weight if the Moon had crossed into Leo.

There's some really good info here. Thanks everyone.

Re conjunctions. I have known several people that have natal Sun-Moon conjunctions. The house placement doesn't take immediate effect but I have definitely noticed that the sign's energy becomes really prominent, it can take over the whole chart especially when you first get to know the person.

One person had Sun-Moon conjunction in Cancer in 11th. Huge network, not sure about how many true friends she has, though. I think she had Venus there too but not conjunct, separated by at least 20 degrees. She's given easily to emotion, very energectic, but has an inconsiderateness about her. While she had easy access to sympathy, she lacked empathy. She was very forward, chatty, likes to show off and has trouble knowing when to let others speak. Lacks modesty, which I'm pretty sure is due to her Moon conjuncting her Sun. I'm sure she's different now and has matured but I'll bet she's still outspoken and finds listening a challenge.

Another person had the same conjunction in Taurus. I no longer have her chart and I can't remember her birthdate so can't give house placements here. She wasn't as forceful as Cancer person, but she still had to have her say. She's not as pushy and brash, but she eventually gets it all out. She's a better listener overall than the Cancer but it's the Taurean patience more than a true desire to hear the other person; she's just waiting it out so she can speak again.

The last example is not an actual conjunction, but a same-sign conjunction. Just going from memory: His Sun was late Virgo but Moon was in super-early Virgo with a natural, noon-time chart. Mars-Sun in wide conjunction. Forget where Venus was, but feels like Earth/Water. Unknown birthtime, so it's possible his Moon is actually in Leo. His rising is either Earth or Water, but I lean towards Cancer rising with him, which might actually put his Moon in Leo but I never fiddled with his chart to find out. Anyway, his wide Sun-Mars conjunction made him very friendly, outgoing, and unbelievably energetic, giving an Aries vibe. There were times when his schedule would make me want to cry but he pushed himself through it like a champ. And in Virgo he did it without a single complaint. Very compassionate, value-driven.

With personal planets I think you can really feel the planet's energy because it's a day to day thing. Stelliums are in your face, especially if it includes Mars. Jennifer Jason Leigh is an example of someone with every single personal planet (and some outers) in an Aquarian stellium sitting in her 9th. I wish I could meet someone with a major stellium like that in person, face to face. Imagine the energy focus!

Minderwiz said:

Conjunctions with the Sun are traditionally seen as likely to be difficult.

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When I was researching the phases of Mercury, I found Thomas Edison, J. S. Mill, and Ludwig Wittgenstein all had close conjunctions of Mercury and the Sun, so the Sun wasn't harming their Mercuries. But all had the superior conjunction. The only celebrities I noticed with the inferior conjunction were Kings James I of England and Louis XVI of France, who obviously didn't benefit. Personally, I'd use the idea of combustion in horaries, but not in nativities.

Minderwiz said:

Yes, there's 5 degrees of separation between the two. If it had been Jupiter and Saturn I might well have thought about it and discounted it but the Moon moves so fast and Saturn so slow that the Conjunction would be perfected in less than 12 hours. If the planetary positions were reversed and the Moon was separating by 5 degrees then I almost certainly would have ignored it.

It's also worth noting that the Moon is applying to Saturn from the Confines (or Bounds or Terms) of Saturn so there's a clear link here between the two planets that needs to be considered. That being said, I'd give it even more weight if the Moon had crossed into Leo.

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Thanks, Minderwiz, I got it.