Info needed about this Eteilla I deck

photokat

Do you know when that version of the Marteau was published?
Cause I don't!
The cards fit the box perfectly - I'd assume that both decks were published around the same time, the owner had both decks and swapped them out at some point.

coredil said:
photokat your box is indeed from the Marteau Grimaud Ancien Tarot de Marseille and not from the Etteilla.
Of course I have no real proof for this but I am quite sure that your deck is quite old and certainly from the first half of the last century.

The cardback posted by Gregory is the same cardback used for the Marteau-Grimaud Ancien Tarot de Marseille until today.
You can see plenty of them in the Marteau-Grimaud thread:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=57491

Best regards
 

coredil

photokat said:
Do you know when that version of the Marteau was published?
Cause I don't!
Nein, ich weiss es nicht genau ;)

I don't know for sure.
I make some associations between the Etteilla deck and The Ancien Tarot de Marseille deck because they both came at one point with the same cardbacks:
either the curly or the whirled cardback.

Here is what I know:

1. All early editions of the the Ancien Tarot de Marseille have either the curly cardback or the whirled cardback.
See post #4, #72, #92, #94 of this thread:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=57491

2. Though the Ancien Tarot de Marseille mentions 1930 on the two of deniers, it is not clear to me if it has been really printed in 1930.
Marteaus book about this deck has been first printed in 1949.
(Though FLornoy mentions on his site that there is an earlier printing of the book)

3. Later editions of the Ancien Tarot de Marseille have the cardback that is still used today (see Gregorys pic in post #15 of this thread)
I make a guess: this cardback appeared 1962 as jean Marie Simon bought the house Grimaud ;)
But hey, this is just a suggestion!

BTW you can read post #15 of this thread for more informations:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=130778

4. So I would aproximately date the Ancien Tarot de Marseille with the curly cardback and the whirled cardback about 1930 to 1962

5. I don't know if these cardbacks have been used before.
I have some older decks from the house Grimaud with completely different cardbacks
Tarot Allemand for example as to see here that I believe to be end of the 19th century:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=979576&postcount=6

6. I simply make a guess that the Etteilla decks printed by Grimaud with the curled cardbacks or the whirled cardbacks are aproximately from the same period as the Ancien Tarot de Marseille with the same cardbacks.
Something between 1930 (or a little prior to 1930) and 1962

Best regards
 

coredil

coredil said:
2. Though the Ancien Tarot de Marseille mentions 1930 on the two of deniers, it is not clear to me if it has been really printed in 1930.
As I wrote this I just wondered why I do not believe that it was really printed in 1930 despite of the date on the two of deniers.
In the moment I could not answer because I forgot the reason but suddenly I remember why :)

It is because of the wonderfull book of J. Maxwell "Le Tarot"
This book was printed in 1932 and Maxwell does not make any mention of the Ancien Tarot de Marseille.
To be precise, he clearly mentions that the last edition of the Tarot de Marseille by the house Grimaud has Junon instead of the Papesse and Jupiter instead of Le Pape.
This means that he points to the "Tarot Italien" printed by Grimaud which is the "Arnoult-Grimaud" and which is a Besancon kind of deck.
This is the version that Grimaud used before they used Paul Marteaus version.

As Maxwell seems to be a very well informed writer (I already mentioned in some threads that the bibliography at the end of his book has 12 pages!) I presume that he would be aware of Paul Marteaus deck ift is was avalaible at this time.

Best regards
 

Yves Le Marseillais

Arnoult 1748

coredil said:
As I wrote this I just wondered why I do not believe that it was really printed in 1930 despite of the date on the two of deniers.
In the moment I could not answer because I forgot the reason but suddenly I remember why :)

It is because of the wonderfull book of J. Maxwell "Le Tarot"
This book was printed in 1932 and Maxwell does not make any mention of the Ancien Tarot de Marseille.
To be precise, he clearly mentions that the last edition of the Tarot de Marseille by the house Grimaud has Junon instead of the Papesse and Jupiter instead of Le Pape.
This means that he points to the "Tarot Italien" printed by Grimaud which is the "Arnoult-Grimaud" and which is a Besancon kind of deck.
This is the version that Grimaud used before they used Paul Marteaus version.

Hello Coredil,

You talk about an Arnoult Grimaud who is a Tarot de Besancon because Jupiter and Junon instead of Pape and Papesse. I know this version thanks.

But, as I own an Arnoult 1748 WITH Pape and Papesse, I wonder if Maxwell was really aware of this typical Tarot of Marseille.
I don't know exactly how to date my deck but for sure it is old.
i.e his back is brown and full of lines in all directions interconnected: difficult to exprim this precisly sorry I can't post here any picture.

Best from Marseille france

Yves
 

coredil

@ photokat
One thought:
Does your deck has a tax stamp on the two of swords?

My copy of the Etteilla with the curled back as well as my copy of the Marteau TDM with the curled back have a 1890 tax stamp.
My Etteilla with the whirled cardback and also the two copy of the Marteau TDM with the curled back do not have a tax stamp.

This could lead to the conclusion that the curled cardback being older than the whirled cardback.

@ Yves Le marseillais
Do you have a "Arnoult-Lequart" or a "Arnoult-Grimaud"?
I have two copy of the Arnoult-Grimaud, both with the plain brown cardback.

The 1748 inscription on the deux des deniers does not mean that the deck has been printed in 1748.
The Arnoult-Grimaud has been printed about 1891
The Arnoult-Lequart probably about 1890
It could be earlier but not earlier than 1872 as the name Lequart seems to appear in 1872.

The Arnoult-Lequart and the Arnoult-Grimaud are printed with lithographie.
It is not clear what is the exact model (woodblock) that has been used for the line-drawings.

According to the very precise description of Maxwell, I am quite sure that this is the deck he is talking about.
I am not aware of another version of the deck between the Arnoult-Grimaud with the brown cardback and the the Marteau-Grimaud from 1930.

Here is a chronology of the house (company) before it becomes Grimaud:

In 1804 Chalamel introduces the fabrication of card with sheets

In 1824 Alphonse Arnoult is the successor to Chalamel

Later Charles Maurin get the house from Arnoult

In 1872 it becomes Lequart et Thuillier

In 1878 it becomes Lequart et Mignot

In 1891 it is bought by Grimaud



I have these informations from the "Musée francais de la carte à jouer" in Issy les Moulineaux.

Best regards
 

Yves Le Marseillais

Arnoult 1748

coredil said:
@ photokat[/color

@ Yves Le marseillais
Do you have a "Arnoult-Lequart" or a "Arnoult-Grimaud"?
I have two copy of the Arnoult-Grimaud, both with the plain brown cardback.

The 1748 inscription on the deux des deniers does not mean that the deck has been printed in 1748.
The Arnoult-Grimaud has been printed about 1891
The Arnoult-Lequart probably about 1890
It could be earlier but not earlier than 1872 as the name Lequart seems to appear in 1872.

The Arnoult-Lequart and the Arnoult-Grimaud are printed with lithographie.
It is not clear what is the exact model (woodblock) that has been used for the line-drawings.

According to the very precise description of Maxwell, I am quite sure that this is the deck he is talking about.
I am not aware of another version of the deck between the Arnoult-Grimaud with the brown cardback and the the Marteau-Grimaud from 1930.

Here is a chronology of the house (company) before it becomes Grimaud:

In 1804 Chalamel introduces the fabrication of card with sheets

In 1824 Alphonse Arnoult is the successor to Chalamel

Later Charles Maurin get the house from Arnoult

In 1872 it becomes Lequart et Thuillier

In 1878 it becomes Lequart et Mignot

In 1891 it is bought by Grimaud



I have these informations from the "Musée francais de la carte à jouer" in Issy les Moulineaux.

Best regards


Hello Coredil,

I have a ARNOULT LEQUART 1748

Yves