major arcana and the astrological correspondences

I have looked all over this site and cannot see if this has been discussed, which I am sure it has, and or where to post.

I need a handle on WHY which majors were 'assigned' to a specific astrological sign, planet, or element. I have a zillion correspondences but nothing about why.

The small cards are easy to remember because I know how the system was devised: Cardinal is 2/3/4 Fixed is 5/6/7 Mutable is 8/9/10 … but with the Majors... I am trying to help teach in a few weeks and I am hoping to find some information as to why say The Devil is Capricorn and The World is Saturn as I am sure my peeps will never remember .. explaining the system for the minors was really helpful for them but all I run into is what is what and not why ...

anyone ?

The best attempt I've seen at an explanation - although far from thoroughly convincing - was by Paul Foster Case in his book The Tarot. He takes a stab at a number of the other sets of correspondences beside astrology, and it has a mainly qabalistic basis overall. I've come to terms with most of them, but I went so far as to come up with my own swaps to make more sense (at least to me) of the astrological qualities in combination with a few of the card meanings. I posted it here quite a while ago but, of course, I can't find it now.

ETA: here it is.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=257357&highlight=Astrological

Thanks for responding ... I like your correspondences btw...

I remember (gods know where) talk about the speed/distance of the traditional luminaries and how that order was how the GD used them in the Tree of Life. That is kind of what I was wondering.

So for Example we can all probably agree Mars is the Emperor, Mercury is the Magician ... but beyond it feels right I was hoping to find some plan like one does in the minors.
The BOT comes to mind with the double looped Zodiacal belt; although that may be the one I can point to even if I don't really agree with Uncle Al 110%

nicky

nicky said:

Thanks for responding ... I like your correspondences btw...

I remember (gods know where) talk about the speed/distance of the traditional luminaries and how that order was how the GD used them in the Tree of Life. That is kind of what I was wondering.

So for Example we can all probably agree Mars is the Emperor, Mercury is the Magician ... but beyond it feels right I was hoping to find some plan like one does in the minors.
The BOT comes to mind with the double looped Zodiacal belt; although that may be the one I can point to even if I don't really agree with Uncle Al 110%

nicky

Click to expand...

I think his Strength/Justice swap holds water (and really all he's doing is reinstating the Marseille order), but I've never bought the Emperor/Star switch based on his flimsy-seeming "Tzaddi/Tsar" argument. I don't know of any coherent plan for the Golden Dawn correspondences beyond the fact that some people have inserted the zodiacal Trumps into the decan wheel in normal zodiacal order (Emperor = Aries; Hierophant = Taurus; Lovers = Gemini, etc), and just consider the planetary Trumps as "free agents." I don't like that last part either, so I just assign them the signs and/or elements ruled by their corresponding planets (using the traditional rulerships for the signs and at least allowing for the idea of the modern planets as representing the three primary elements). I don't worry too much about pedigree myself; if a correspondence adds value to the interpretation, I use it. If not, I ignore it.

Here's a quote from Gareth Knight's A Practical Guide to Qabalistic Symbolism (1965):

"When one gets down to basics the only reliable attributions on the Tree of Life are the Hebrew names and letters. All others are later additions to the system and subject to experiment and discussion. Even the astrological signs are open to question though, as it happens, there seems to be little modern controversy on this subject. A casual reference to the Sepher Yetzirah will show that, apart from the general principle of the Elements, Planets and Zodiacal Signs being allocated to the Mother, Double and Single letters respectively, no definite sequence of attributions is given except for Aleph-Air, Mem-Water and Shin-Fire. Medieval commentators gave many varying accounts of the "true" attributions."

nicky said:

I am trying to help teach in a few weeks and I am hoping to find some information as to why say The Devil is Capricorn and The World is Saturn as I am sure my peeps will never remember .

Click to expand...

This doesn't help with the overall "why", but might at least help your students with those two cards (if you hadn't already thought of it, that is): The prominent wreath in the RWS/Marseilles World cards (as well as the large circular shape/"womb" in Thoth's Universe card) could be likened to Saturn's rings... And the common use of "goat-like" Devil imagery can bring Capricorn to mind.

Break the order up into more memorable parts?

nicky said:

I am trying to help teach in a few weeks and I am hoping to find some information as to why say The Devil is Capricorn and The World is Saturn as I am sure my peeps will never remember

Click to expand...

Let's start here for trying simply to remember the majors and their astrological associations. And no, they are not going to be so easy to remember. But you can cut them down into "parts" that are easier: The Golden Dawn essentially wanted the Astrological signs to go up from Aries to Pisces, with Planets (Mercury, Moon, Venus-Saturn...Uranus, Neptune and Pluto had not been discovered, and no Earth, that was "universal") and elements (Air, Water, Fire...no Earth, that as "universal") filing in the blanks more-or-less in order.

That's five planets
Three Elements (note, you can replace with Uranus, Neptune and Pluto if you like)
Twelve Signs

We start with "Air" for the Fool, and that's easy to remember (element #1, we take our first breath as a baby--the Fool, the start); now three planets follow: Mercury for Magician, Moon for HPS and Venus for Empress (inner "planets" as it were). Those are followed by the first six zodiac signs: Aries for Emperor, Taurus for Hierophant, Gemini for Lovers and Cancer for Chariot. Strength is the Leo...and is #8 in part because Justice is so evidently Libra (to Waite), but Waite didn't want Libra to come before the Hermit which he and the GD saw as Virgo. That was part of the reason for the switch. So that Leo (strength) would go before Virgo and Libra after.

One element, three planets and six zodiac signs for 0-9 (or the first ten). Notice that "Air" is followed by "Mercury" the "talking" zodiac sign (for Magician). And Venus is followed by "Aries" which is the Greek name for "Mars" so you get a kind of "Venus & Mars."

Next up we go back to planets: The Wheel (10) is "Jupiter" Then a zodiac sign, Justice is Libra (11), then the 2nd elemental: Hanged Man: Water. So Planet-Zodaic-Element. Astrologically that "Fire-Air-Water" by the way (Jupiter fire, Libra air and Water water).

Back to the remaining zodiac, in order: Death is scorpio (you had the water element, so the zodiac following it is a water sign), Temperance is Sag. (fire), Devil is Capricorn (Earth). Three signs which are also three elements.

Next up, planets bracketing two zodiac signs: Mars is the Tower, followed by Star is Aquarius and the Moon is Pisces and the Sun-sun. So, Mars-(Star, Moon)-Sun (Planet--zodiac, zodiac--planet)

And with that last planet being "Fire" we end come to our final element: Fire for Judgement. Our final planet after that is Saturn for the World. (Element-Planet). Breaking these up into parts like this can help with remembering them. But one thing the GD did make easy in remembering them was to keep the Zodiac signs in "order". Hope that helps some. As for "why is this X not y..." I'll answer that in a separate post.

Which is which and why...The World & Devil

nicky said:

The Devil is Capricorn and The World is Saturn as I am sure my peeps will never remember .. explaining the system for the minors was really helpful for them but all I run into is what is what and not why

Click to expand...

I'm going to argue here in favor of the Golden Dawn (modern classical tarot) associations--why they are as they are. Whether they should be as they are is a whole other argument

The World as Saturn: "Earth" is out of the picture as planet or element assignment, but the World should be an "earth" element card, right? So that leaves earthy (astrologically speaking) planets. Venus is taken. Which leaves Saturn. Saturn also fits in that it's about maturity and wisdom (Saturn is the old man with the hourglass). That fits the meaning of the World, so Saturn is actually a good fit for that card if "Earth" isn't in the running.

Capricorn as the Devil: Capricorn is also an earth sign; the goat is an ambitious climber, and that suits the ambitions of the Devil (who, biblically speaking, wanted to be god). A mountain goat also suits the idea of the Devil as into earthly things, pleasures and acquisitions as well as that literal connection with the goat hooves and horns. The problem with this association is the resoundingly negative character of the Devil. Waite "chained" (excuse the pun there) Capricorn unfairly with a being that lacks (again, biblically speaking) any positives. A Pan or Dionysus would have been more balanced (and why not as the Pope is the High Priest in Waite's deck), but that is what you get when you assign Greek zodiac signs (greek mythology) to Christian inspired cards (containing a "Pope" and Devil). They don't always match up so neatly or fairly.

The Moon and Pisces

Though you don't mention it, the card that usually causes the bigger confusion is the Moon as Pisces. Especially given that the Sun is the Sun, shouldn't the Moon be the Moon? But actually the Moon is "misnamed." It isn't the Moon so much as "nighttime" which we often represent with a black sky and a moon. It's a time of sleep, dreams, poetry and deep, primal emotions. Which is why it's Pisces; Pisces is the sign for dreamers and poets, right? Meanwhile, the HPS is the Moon planet because the Moon planet doesn't, astrologically, stand for dreams and poetry. It stands for watery emotions, psychic powers, chaste maidens and such. So, while related, the two assignments (Moon for HPS card and Pisces for Moon card) are arguably (astrologically speaking) in the right place.

To mix this up even further, there's Cancer as the Chariot. Oy! Isn't Cancer the "moon" astrologically? Well, Cancer can't be the Moon because the Moon comes near the end of the deck. Remember, astrological signs in order (that's why the Strength-Leo/Justice-Libra switch). But taking the Moon out of "Star-Moon-Sun" to put it after the Magician? Um...no. HPS really belongs after Magician. So, why not the HPS as Cancer, freeing up the Moon planet for the Moon Card? Well, first, what happened to Aries, Taurus and Gemini? Are we switching the HPS with the Chariot in card order? And second where does Pisces go? And what would the Chariot be? Not Pisces (end of the Zodiac and Pisces doesn't fit the Chariot in meaning). As mentioned, Cancer is a Summer sign with the Moon as it's planet. So, it's Sun/Moon. Land and Sea. The crab races between the two. Like a chariot, armored on the outside, soft on the inside. And moving sidewise to engage the enemy. So Cancer actually works better for the Chariot than for the HPS.

I don't know if any of this helps, but those would be my explanations.

I assume the OP is looking for some kind of underlying, systematic "plan" for why the Golden Dawn chose which signs and planets to put with which cards. There is a lot of esoteric literature explaining why they fit, but not how they were selected in the first place. You can kind of "back-door" into it by looking at which of the Major Arcana were assigned to which paths and Hebrew letters on the Tree of Life, and then fold in which signs and planets were placed with which cards. The overall schema comes from the Tree itself, but it assumes that you understand and accept why the cards were assigned to those paths and letters. After that it's a matter of trying to draw correlations between the paths/letters and the astrological correspondences. Some are fairly obvious: the World and its association with materialistic Saturn joins the sphere of the Earth with that of the Moon; Temperance and its related sign, Sagittarius the Archer, is on the Path of the Arrow joining the sphere of the Moon with that of the Sun. Others are more subtle and take deeper contemplation.

It's not something I would want to try using as a road-map for the general population of tarot students.