Wands- Air --- Swords - Fire ... what do you think?

David River

DarkElectric said:

Someone once told me that the Swords-Air, Wands-Fire was a deliberate obfuscation on the part of the Golden Dawn to prevent non initiates from reading Tarot correctly. Has anyone else ever heard this?

Sorry... Just wanted to ask...

Since when is the "Golden Dawn" considered the founder of the tarot and the end all of end all in meanings for the tarot? Personally speaking... Wouldn't it be wise to question Aleister Crowley and his beliefs to begin with?

I feel so over opinionated today.

David River
 

lupo138

waite, founder of the r/w tarot was a member of the golden dawn, as far as I do know as well as mr. crowley. I think their work is the basement of the most part of modern western esoterics. do it seems to make sense to take their arguments into consideration - of course they are not trutj itself ;)
 

David River

Allow me to quote my own site...

" The earliest known decks of Tarot that we still have in existence today come from Italy. The two main decks that we have from this time are called the "Charles IV" deck, and also the "Visconti-Sforza" deck. "

Im pretty sure as I have done a little research in the past is that the Rider Waite deck is not one of the first decks. Its just universal in symbolism. I feel its fine to take Crowley and his opionions into consideration, but consider his motives and his goals. I personally dont feel I could ever call Crowley a good man. As I am opinionated, I think what you will find interesting is that on my website I did a review of his deck. I dont do very many reviews as I only do the ones I feel are most important, and likewise adding his version to my site says that I feel he is a major player, just not necessarily a worker of "light" so to speak. I think that is even reflected in the symbolism he uses in his thoth deck.

I guess what Im trying to say is be original. Dont just take someones word for it. Not even mine. Prove your theories, your thoughts and your beliefs. Research and find out all you can, then make an informed decision.

David River
 

jmd

In response to DarkElectric's question as whether anyone has heard it said that the Golden Dawn deliberately obfuscated certain elements in order to confuse the non-initiate, I have heard this before - and about a number of people, including Waite. Personally, I find this line of argument weak, but unfortunately common enough, especially when someone wishes to quote the 'authority' of, for example, the Golden Dawn, whilst at the same time wishing to actually change what they did or said.

With regards to the original thread and the Justice card, that she has a sword does not, in my opinion, necessarily relate to either element. It is also worth reflecting on the different impulses which the image of the sword carries. It being held by Justice is quite different to a knight's sword, and again different to swords generally. Even amongst mediaeval commentators, not all swords were equal. For those interested, I quote Suger in the thread on VIII - Justice in the Historical Decks section.

I find it absolutely fascinating that we, as moderns, tend to have this closer association between the sharpness of the mind and swords, and the Fire of the Will, and thus the wand. I suspect that earlier thinking would have more easily associated the mental rectitude and control of the mind by the Magician as more easily connecting the Wand to Air, and also consequently, the Will activity required in the wielding of the sword, as well as the forge required for its making, as clear indicators for its association with Fire (after all, even the salamanders would have been present at its creation, as the sylphs would have been for the wand's!).

As for Justice, if elemental attributions really want to be made, the Air aspect could very well be indicated by the scales - which, once considered, need to be followed through with the fiery action of the sword! - these words of mine are, of course, only meant as further reflections for consideration. Personally, I do not consider that words can ever capture the essence of either the elements or the cards, but only indicate certain directions for further deepened imaginative, inspirational and intuitive work.
 

David River

Well put JMD.

David River
 

lupo138

@ David River

you are absolutely right with everything you say. I only wanted to point out, why I regard their views as helpful.
re crowley: he is over-valued most of the time, I think. but anyway he got his value, even if being more little than the average opinion sees him. in addition, I think that it is not of importance, whether you are "good" or "evil" when you are right. and I think he was not evil, but simply driven away from the ideals, he proclaimed himself ;)
is that ok for you ?
 

David River

of course its ok Lupo. Im sorry if I come across so one standard. Thats why I mentioned I did a review of his cards. He is a very important figure and even further I have experienced some of his teachings first hand. There is definate truth there. Its just that truth can be distorted, which oddly enough is what this thread was about to begin with. Please dont take me as a tyrant. I sometimes just have a strong presence. And Im kinda on a defensive regarding another thread. Again Im sorry to come off so strong, and may Life bless you accordingly.

David River
 

retrokat

David River said:


Sorry... Just wanted to ask...

Since when is the "Golden Dawn" considered the founder of the tarot and the end all of end all in meanings for the tarot? Personally speaking... Wouldn't it be wise to question Aleister Crowley and his beliefs to begin with?

I feel so over opinionated today.

David River

Since when did anyone on this thread infer that GD were founders of the tarot? I got the idea that Dark Electric was suggesting more that (there was a rumour that) they did it to confuse non-initiates - which in my interpretation comes nowhere near suggesting that GD are any kind of "founders" of the tarot. And the point was raised in a way that DID question the motivation of the switch, it seemed.

This thread seems to have taken a turn to being a soapbox to rail against the GD - which is fair enough, but perhaps more appropriate to it's own thread? Just a thought!
 

lupo138

@David

everything has been fine with me - there is nothing to be sorry for. especially as we seem to travel on a similar path :)

blessed be

L.