Khatruman
Umm, Kaz
Hate to say it, but it looks like you have the Three of Swords in there in place of the Two of Wands..*s*
Hate to say it, but it looks like you have the Three of Swords in there in place of the Two of Wands..*s*
Study of the Marseilles pips: The Two's
skytwig
May I participate?
Yes, it looks like three.
twig comments: Mirrors - isn't it interesting that we can't see our own faces? (I used to try as a child; was totally befuddled by this body container in which I found myself.) Do mirrors and twos indicate something about our stay here on this planet? Is it possible that in another 'place' we CAN see our faces? what would life be like if we could - directly I mean.
Also, it is interesting that our two sides of face are not the same!!
And, isn't it intriguing that we, as humans, are so 2 oriented? 2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 sides of brain...... 2 parties of gov; 2 sides to a war; 2 sides to every story; 2 parents of a child; 2 sides of the I CHING; 2 colors of checkers.....
Mirrors bring to mind Alice jumping through the Looking Glass. One thing I have 'remembered' is that, on Earth, everything IS opposite to what it seems..... OR SO IT SEEMS TO ME......
2 is balance, yes, but what is the center of that balance: One? or is it the energy of the 2?
Anyway, can I play here, too?
Yes, it looks like three.
twig comments: Mirrors - isn't it interesting that we can't see our own faces? (I used to try as a child; was totally befuddled by this body container in which I found myself.) Do mirrors and twos indicate something about our stay here on this planet? Is it possible that in another 'place' we CAN see our faces? what would life be like if we could - directly I mean.
Also, it is interesting that our two sides of face are not the same!!
And, isn't it intriguing that we, as humans, are so 2 oriented? 2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 sides of brain...... 2 parties of gov; 2 sides to a war; 2 sides to every story; 2 parents of a child; 2 sides of the I CHING; 2 colors of checkers.....
Mirrors bring to mind Alice jumping through the Looking Glass. One thing I have 'remembered' is that, on Earth, everything IS opposite to what it seems..... OR SO IT SEEMS TO ME......
2 is balance, yes, but what is the center of that balance: One? or is it the energy of the 2?
Anyway, can I play here, too?
Rusty Neon
The fishes
In his book _Le Tarot de Marseille_, Paul Marteau suggests that the two fishies are chimeras (the mythical beasts of Greek mythology and, post-Classically, any mythical beast with parts taken from various animals). He appears to view the chimeras as representing passivity of the spirit coming eventually into manifestion.
(While Paul Marteau's book is, of course, not authorative as the basic designs of the Marteau deck are also found in the Conver designs of 1760, I do consult that book from time to time. )
Incidentally, "chimera" has entered ordinary English language to also mean "a fantastic or grostesque product of the imagination" (Oxford Canadian Dictionary).
Chevalier/Gheerbrant's dictionary of symbolism suggests that, synthesizing from Greek mythology, chimeras symbolize "mental pictures drawn from the depths of the unconscious and perhaps representing tendencies so repressed that they become a source of suffering".
On the other hand, Tarot author Alain Bocher, commenting on the Conver 2 of Cups, suggests that the fishes are dolphins.
Personally, in view of the 2 of Cups speaking of duality and Water, I can see the fishes as being the two fishes of the watery sign of Pisces. Astrological keywords for Pisces include Merging, Uniting. As astrologer Gail Fairfield notes, the glyph for Pisces "represents two fish who are connected to each other but swimming in opposite directions." "It symbolizes our connectedness to one another in the vast sea of the Universe."
In his book _Le Tarot de Marseille_, Paul Marteau suggests that the two fishies are chimeras (the mythical beasts of Greek mythology and, post-Classically, any mythical beast with parts taken from various animals). He appears to view the chimeras as representing passivity of the spirit coming eventually into manifestion.
(While Paul Marteau's book is, of course, not authorative as the basic designs of the Marteau deck are also found in the Conver designs of 1760, I do consult that book from time to time. )
Incidentally, "chimera" has entered ordinary English language to also mean "a fantastic or grostesque product of the imagination" (Oxford Canadian Dictionary).
Chevalier/Gheerbrant's dictionary of symbolism suggests that, synthesizing from Greek mythology, chimeras symbolize "mental pictures drawn from the depths of the unconscious and perhaps representing tendencies so repressed that they become a source of suffering".
On the other hand, Tarot author Alain Bocher, commenting on the Conver 2 of Cups, suggests that the fishes are dolphins.
Personally, in view of the 2 of Cups speaking of duality and Water, I can see the fishes as being the two fishes of the watery sign of Pisces. Astrological keywords for Pisces include Merging, Uniting. As astrologer Gail Fairfield notes, the glyph for Pisces "represents two fish who are connected to each other but swimming in opposite directions." "It symbolizes our connectedness to one another in the vast sea of the Universe."
Mimers
OK, I have studied the cards. I have not read any posts yet because I wanted to get my own objective observations and feelings of the cards down in my journal before I read any others.
I also want to point out that the picture has the 3 of swords, not the 2, so I was unable to see it as I dont have a deck yet.
I did notice one thing I would like to point out about the Wands and Swords before I noticed it was the 3 of swords. At the ends of the wands in the sword card and the end of the wands in the wands card the yellow and red lines or bars of color are reversed on the respective cards. I wondered about the signifigance of that. I will think about it more after I have a chance to see the 2 of swords.
2 of WANDS
I started off with the Wands card and the first thing I noticed is how the fully blumed flower fills the whole center of the two wands. It made me think of growth and life at it's peak. The yellows and reds of the flower remind me of knowledge and passion respectively. This flower is inside the wands. The passion that comes from new ideas as they bloom inside us. Like when you get that great idea inside you and you all but explode with anticipation as you see in your mind just how you are going to make that idea come to life. But it is still inside you.
I also noticed the yellow and red bars at the ends of the wands and how they just about touch. By combining the two it brings our knowledge and passions together. The coming together of different ideas to create a vision of masterpiece!
2 of PENTACLES
The first thing I noticed were the 2 little flowers at the top and bottom of the 's'. They are brand new. They look to me like they are just breaking out of the pod. Growth close to the earth. The white stems, pure and not yet green from the sun means they have just come from the earth. It is a lot of physical work for the plant to break out of the pod and get through all that dirt, but it has and combined with the sun it will grow and become....3?
The big, bold, blue S with the publisher on it reminds me of the security that money and possesions bring. The flowers are comi g out of the ends.
Hmmm, The potential for growth in money and material matters, through hard work.
As for the publisher sticking his business card here, at first I thought, THE CARDS HAVE BEEN DEFAMED!!! Then I reconsidered and thought how appropriate.
2 of CUPS
I really love this card. No pun intended. Look at the little fishys. Wow all that red at the bottom. The passion that every thing this card represents comes from. Even the cups are red inside. Everything is filled with passion! (calm down Mimi) ok, I'm calm. Let's see what springs from this abundance of passion?
Emotions. The blue waters of emotions. The two combined create well, I will call it the love flower. The fish of emotions feed on the neckter of the love flower. Mmmm, sweet. (Mimi, calm down!) Sorry. Are they licking the flower? (Mimi, stop now!)
On a more serious note, I noticed that the base of the cups have yellow with black on either side. The base of both cups are both, well organized is not the word I am looking for. Umm, solid. Black reminds me of something solid. Just an observation.
I don't want to look at the other posts until I can see the 2 of swords. But I can't wait to see what everyone else has written!
Chao for now!
Mimi
I also want to point out that the picture has the 3 of swords, not the 2, so I was unable to see it as I dont have a deck yet.
I did notice one thing I would like to point out about the Wands and Swords before I noticed it was the 3 of swords. At the ends of the wands in the sword card and the end of the wands in the wands card the yellow and red lines or bars of color are reversed on the respective cards. I wondered about the signifigance of that. I will think about it more after I have a chance to see the 2 of swords.
2 of WANDS
I started off with the Wands card and the first thing I noticed is how the fully blumed flower fills the whole center of the two wands. It made me think of growth and life at it's peak. The yellows and reds of the flower remind me of knowledge and passion respectively. This flower is inside the wands. The passion that comes from new ideas as they bloom inside us. Like when you get that great idea inside you and you all but explode with anticipation as you see in your mind just how you are going to make that idea come to life. But it is still inside you.
I also noticed the yellow and red bars at the ends of the wands and how they just about touch. By combining the two it brings our knowledge and passions together. The coming together of different ideas to create a vision of masterpiece!
2 of PENTACLES
The first thing I noticed were the 2 little flowers at the top and bottom of the 's'. They are brand new. They look to me like they are just breaking out of the pod. Growth close to the earth. The white stems, pure and not yet green from the sun means they have just come from the earth. It is a lot of physical work for the plant to break out of the pod and get through all that dirt, but it has and combined with the sun it will grow and become....3?
The big, bold, blue S with the publisher on it reminds me of the security that money and possesions bring. The flowers are comi g out of the ends.
Hmmm, The potential for growth in money and material matters, through hard work.
As for the publisher sticking his business card here, at first I thought, THE CARDS HAVE BEEN DEFAMED!!! Then I reconsidered and thought how appropriate.
2 of CUPS
I really love this card. No pun intended. Look at the little fishys. Wow all that red at the bottom. The passion that every thing this card represents comes from. Even the cups are red inside. Everything is filled with passion! (calm down Mimi) ok, I'm calm. Let's see what springs from this abundance of passion?
Emotions. The blue waters of emotions. The two combined create well, I will call it the love flower. The fish of emotions feed on the neckter of the love flower. Mmmm, sweet. (Mimi, calm down!) Sorry. Are they licking the flower? (Mimi, stop now!)
On a more serious note, I noticed that the base of the cups have yellow with black on either side. The base of both cups are both, well organized is not the word I am looking for. Umm, solid. Black reminds me of something solid. Just an observation.
I don't want to look at the other posts until I can see the 2 of swords. But I can't wait to see what everyone else has written!
Chao for now!
Mimi
Khatruman
Hmmm, those fishies!!!
Ok, since the Lady de Marseilles has taken the initiative to focus first on the Two of Cups, let me make my commentary here.
First, I find it interesting that this Two, unlike the other three, is reversable. Actually, this is not entirely true since the traditional company attribution is inscribed in the S pattern of the Two of Coins, but regardless of that, in the very pattern, the 2 of Cups is reversable. I did not attribute any significance to the red bar across the bottom of the card, which is curious because, looking at it now, it is quite significant in the pattern: that large red block across the bottom. I like Diana's observation on the significance of red as the color of blood, activity, passion, etc. Would the medieval/Renaissance belief in the four humours of the body (blood, phlegm, black bile, yellow bile) be relevant here? I know that to be an English understanding, but I am not sure if it would apply to the French, or Italians.
I'm not really sure about the mirror imagery that Diana is getting at. Seems there is a symmetry like that in all the two's here. I do see a difference in the coins, in that the two coins are one above the other, rather than side by side, but there is a symmetrical balance in all the two's
I liked what skytwig had to say about the symmetry of the body in two's (BTW skytwig, of course you are welcome to join. To me, that was the objective of this study group, to involve more tarotists in looking at the pips). It would be interesting to see if the card takes on a different character if you cover the right of left half. I have seen interesting experiments involving our facial "symmetry". Have you ever seen a picture where the left or right half of the face is blocked and the other side is mirrored and pasted onto the other side, so that you have two left side faces or two right side faces. Do that to either side, and you have two strikingly different people.
Arggghhh, so much more, and I am out of time. I didn't even GET to those Fishies!!! (One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish...
)
Will continue this later!!!
Peace!
Ok, since the Lady de Marseilles has taken the initiative to focus first on the Two of Cups, let me make my commentary here.
First, I find it interesting that this Two, unlike the other three, is reversable. Actually, this is not entirely true since the traditional company attribution is inscribed in the S pattern of the Two of Coins, but regardless of that, in the very pattern, the 2 of Cups is reversable. I did not attribute any significance to the red bar across the bottom of the card, which is curious because, looking at it now, it is quite significant in the pattern: that large red block across the bottom. I like Diana's observation on the significance of red as the color of blood, activity, passion, etc. Would the medieval/Renaissance belief in the four humours of the body (blood, phlegm, black bile, yellow bile) be relevant here? I know that to be an English understanding, but I am not sure if it would apply to the French, or Italians.
I'm not really sure about the mirror imagery that Diana is getting at. Seems there is a symmetry like that in all the two's here. I do see a difference in the coins, in that the two coins are one above the other, rather than side by side, but there is a symmetrical balance in all the two's
I liked what skytwig had to say about the symmetry of the body in two's (BTW skytwig, of course you are welcome to join. To me, that was the objective of this study group, to involve more tarotists in looking at the pips). It would be interesting to see if the card takes on a different character if you cover the right of left half. I have seen interesting experiments involving our facial "symmetry". Have you ever seen a picture where the left or right half of the face is blocked and the other side is mirrored and pasted onto the other side, so that you have two left side faces or two right side faces. Do that to either side, and you have two strikingly different people.
Arggghhh, so much more, and I am out of time. I didn't even GET to those Fishies!!! (One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish...
)Will continue this later!!!
Peace!
skytwig
COLORS
As a Reiki healer and a mover of energy within meridians and chakras, I notice the colors right off the bat. Yellow is the solar plexus, where our will arises. Red is the root chakra, from which life ascends. Energy, survival. Group thinking. Blue is the throat chakra, communication. Black has to be Shadow, or all colors (to me). White is Light. the Unknown. The Eternal Question/Answer. The aforementioned colors lie upon this field of White. As if it is a drawing upon Spirit or a dance within it.
The first thing i saw, upon viewing the 2 of cups, was a mathematical formula. Cup equals Cup? Or that which equals is somewhere else, behind the formula, relating to the manifestation between the cups. The centerpiece appears to be the polarization between the cups. Like two bodies in gravitational attraction, creating this new life, dynamically different and more intricate.
Are they really fishies or be they beasties? And why do the cup mouths look like the 'fishy' mouths? I like the writings about chimera - sends up all kinds of ideas about creativity and creation. As if love interacting with love yields other worlds altogether. For creativity arises from that wondrous dance of the heart and spirit!!!!!! the base of the flowery thing (between the cups) is blue, indicating communication.......
As a Reiki healer and a mover of energy within meridians and chakras, I notice the colors right off the bat. Yellow is the solar plexus, where our will arises. Red is the root chakra, from which life ascends. Energy, survival. Group thinking. Blue is the throat chakra, communication. Black has to be Shadow, or all colors (to me). White is Light. the Unknown. The Eternal Question/Answer. The aforementioned colors lie upon this field of White. As if it is a drawing upon Spirit or a dance within it.
The first thing i saw, upon viewing the 2 of cups, was a mathematical formula. Cup equals Cup? Or that which equals is somewhere else, behind the formula, relating to the manifestation between the cups. The centerpiece appears to be the polarization between the cups. Like two bodies in gravitational attraction, creating this new life, dynamically different and more intricate.
Are they really fishies or be they beasties? And why do the cup mouths look like the 'fishy' mouths? I like the writings about chimera - sends up all kinds of ideas about creativity and creation. As if love interacting with love yields other worlds altogether. For creativity arises from that wondrous dance of the heart and spirit!!!!!! the base of the flowery thing (between the cups) is blue, indicating communication.......
Rusty Neon
colours
Personally, in my still embyronic approach to the TdM, I'm putting little, if any, emphasis on colours. This is because the actual colours used for the same card feature, and the total number of colours in the colour palette, differ from deck to deck, e.g., Marteau TdM (Grimaud or Dusserre publishers) vs. Conver 1760 TdM (Héron publishers). As a consequence, I prefer a no-colour card interpretation that would be consistent between the Marteau and the Conver decks.
In 20th century French TdM literature, tarot authors generally use colour symbolism to interpret the cards. They tend to base their interpretations on the colour palette and usage of the Marteau deck and often tend to follow the colour meanings assigned in Marteau's book.
Personally, in my still embyronic approach to the TdM, I'm putting little, if any, emphasis on colours. This is because the actual colours used for the same card feature, and the total number of colours in the colour palette, differ from deck to deck, e.g., Marteau TdM (Grimaud or Dusserre publishers) vs. Conver 1760 TdM (Héron publishers). As a consequence, I prefer a no-colour card interpretation that would be consistent between the Marteau and the Conver decks.
In 20th century French TdM literature, tarot authors generally use colour symbolism to interpret the cards. They tend to base their interpretations on the colour palette and usage of the Marteau deck and often tend to follow the colour meanings assigned in Marteau's book.
Khatruman
Ok, still trying to get some intuits regarding the cards. I am in a frustration stage, but I am giving a literal look at the cards. rusty neon mentions variances of colors from TdM's of different makes... are the variances of shades or actual colors (i.e. would there perhaps be blue colorings on the inside of the cups, or is it just that it might be more of a crimson rather than a bright red?), if it is different shades of the same colors, I don't see a problem with associating messages with colors. For this deck, the colors seem to pretty much be prime: blue, yellow, red, white. We can deal with the essence of those colors.
Ok, these fishies, which have been associated with chimaera also, hmmm, I keep coming back to fish, but I also see plant attributes, the red tongues being perhaps like a flowers stamen (ok, botanists, am I naming it right?) I also get images of fancy fountains, ones I have seen in older cities. Concrete fish from which fountains of water stream out. Perhaps the whole centerpiece is a great fountain, in which case the chalices would receive the water overflow from the fountain, and if the fishheads (uh oh, I hear Umbrae singing in the background *L*) issue forth the water, its supply is drawn from the red pool at the base of the card. That is the source which is sucked up in through the base, pours from the tongued mouths of the fish into the fountain head, then overflows into the cups, or back down to the base. Hmmm, significance? Well, I will work on that.
Ok, these fishies, which have been associated with chimaera also, hmmm, I keep coming back to fish, but I also see plant attributes, the red tongues being perhaps like a flowers stamen (ok, botanists, am I naming it right?
) I also get images of fancy fountains, ones I have seen in older cities. Concrete fish from which fountains of water stream out. Perhaps the whole centerpiece is a great fountain, in which case the chalices would receive the water overflow from the fountain, and if the fishheads (uh oh, I hear Umbrae singing in the background *L*) issue forth the water, its supply is drawn from the red pool at the base of the card. That is the source which is sucked up in through the base, pours from the tongued mouths of the fish into the fountain head, then overflows into the cups, or back down to the base. Hmmm, significance? Well, I will work on that.Rusty Neon
Colour differences between Heron and Marteau decks
Hi Khatruman. Sometimes the differences are in colour shade but often the differences are in the actual colour itself.
Let's use the 3 of Swords as an example:
Blade of central sword: red (Heron) vs. flesh colour (Marteau)
Central sword's grip: light blue (Heron) vs. red (Marteau)
stems of the flowers that are crossed by the central sword: red (Heron) vs. white (Marteau)
etc., etc.
With 78 cards in the deck and as you can see from the differences in just the 3 of Swords, it would be hard to remember which colours are different from deck to deck as regards a particular card element. Thus, I personally prefer to ignore all colours in virtually all cases.
Hi Khatruman. Sometimes the differences are in colour shade but often the differences are in the actual colour itself.
Let's use the 3 of Swords as an example:
Blade of central sword: red (Heron) vs. flesh colour (Marteau)
Central sword's grip: light blue (Heron) vs. red (Marteau)
stems of the flowers that are crossed by the central sword: red (Heron) vs. white (Marteau)
etc., etc.
With 78 cards in the deck and as you can see from the differences in just the 3 of Swords, it would be hard to remember which colours are different from deck to deck as regards a particular card element. Thus, I personally prefer to ignore all colours in virtually all cases.
ihcoyc
I see the "fish" on the 2 of Cups, with their prominent foreheads and forethrust lips, as heraldic dolphins. 32-01 and 32-02 are heraldic dolphins, which admittedly don't look much like the genuine article. Here's another heraldic dolphin that looks rather like the one on the Grimaud card.
The dolphin was considered by heraldry writers as the most lordly fish, corresponding to the lion among beasts, and the eagle among birds. This did not make the dolphin as common as the lion or eagle in heraldry, FWIW. Of course, the dolphin is also the emblem of the heir apparent to the throne of France.
The dolphin was considered by heraldry writers as the most lordly fish, corresponding to the lion among beasts, and the eagle among birds. This did not make the dolphin as common as the lion or eagle in heraldry, FWIW. Of course, the dolphin is also the emblem of the heir apparent to the throne of France.
