Thoughts on the Celtic Cross

Barleywine

I started using the Celtic Cross when I bought my first tarot deck -- the 1JJSwiss. It even came with a big sheet of paper to put the cards on.

I actually prefer smaller spreads now. Much less confusing, and the answers I get are clearer.

I seldom read for myself, and I prefer larger spreads for reading for others because I encounter quite a few "general look-ahead" situations, usually with a few issue-specific "hooks" buried in them. That said, I just started working with the "Earth-Air-Fire-Water" spread (thanks, Tanga!) to get an overall "tenor of my day" perspective.

My original Mythic Tarot came with a printed CC spread-cloth but it's kind of a drab one.
 

MandMaud

Just a different model, one I learned from Eden Gray's books back in 1972 and have elaborated on ever since. Not a "need" just a variation. I don't believe Gray ever explained why she felt a "need to separate" hopes and fears into two positions, but I'm probably wrong and will have to go look. By the logic you've given, I see "fears" as better positioned low on the "staff" than in the more exalted spot up high. It's why I call the lower position "the deepest part of the Self" (rather than just the "Self" or "himself" per Waite), and the "psychic basement" where emotional "baggage" accumulates. By the same token, many people use Waite's "sign of the cross" model without really thinking too much about it. I try to get "under the hood" more.

I rarely know where ideas come from - didn't know, for example, that one approach was Gray's and the other Waite's - and looking at the wheel part (as I too think of it) as a papal blessing finally shows me why people lay the cards that order; as earthair says, it made no sense to defy gravity and left/right logic. :)

I'm not sure I agree with you about fears being lower than hopes. Hopes can be deep in the unconscious, and fears can be entirely conscious. Sometimes emotional baggage manifests as hopes... but I see your point about fears lying lower than hopes. Just need to decide if I really think they ARE lower. :)

I prefer to get under the hood, too... usually if something strikes me as anti-intuitive, I seek a way of understanding it that makes sense of it. That's probably why I stopped to consider how hopes and fears can be expressed by a single card, rather than rejecting the idea and modifying that position for myself. But faced with two schools of thought, I use intuition to decide, or more often find a third (and fourth and fifth) option come to me - which rarely happens at the earlier stage of study, when I've only come across one way.

I don't think they're the same thing at all, which is why they're so useful as 2 different cards for me. Therefore I can see why, when a person thinks they are two sides of the same coin, they would need only 1 card! But...just for an experiment, why not try 2 cards in the next CC you do- first is hopes, second is fears. You have nothing to lose ;)

I was already thinking of doing just that!

I'm not all that experienced with the CC. And I'll never reject an approach without a fair trial!

So far I've done mainly general questions with it, because I'm practising and can never think of a question for myself. Since people here are saying it's much better with a question, I'll have to think some up!
 

MandMaud

Nice fish! If you flipped it top-to-bottom and side-to-side, you could even superimpose a CC on it, with extra positions on the tail. Could even work as a spread cloth :D

:thumbsup:
 

MandMaud

Oh, the magic of getting stuck on the Reply screen! Post #23 was posted earlier than #24! Did you miss it? :)
 

Grizabella

I go 1 in centre, 2 crossing it, 3 roots beneath, 4 past (left), 5 crowns on top, 6 future to the right.

This is the method Dusty White teaches in his book Advanced Tarot Secrets.

Yup, going down and clockwise is the only thing that makes sense :cool2: I've never understood how some versions have positions defying gravity and the natural progression of left to right!

And in that same book, Dusty White says that the reason it's called a "cross" and is played out in this pattern in the spread is because it's supposedly making the "sign of the cross" as is done in Catholicism when a person makes the motion of crossing themselves.

Now I'm going to go back to Tarot Beyond the Basics and pay more attention the Celtic Cross section.
 

Barleywine

I'm not sure I agree with you about fears being lower than hopes. Hopes can be deep in the unconscious, and fears can be entirely conscious. Sometimes emotional baggage manifests as hopes... but I see your point about fears lying lower than hopes. Just need to decide if I really think they ARE lower. :)

Fair enough, I'm not sure I agree with me either! I've been trying for years to put some flesh on the bones of Gray's alternative. She didn't explain in her books and there are no bibliographies that might reveal her sources. Perhaps Mary Greer or Rachel Pollack have done some analysis of Gray's methods.

Waite called the 7th card "Himself," which seemed pretty useless to me and a waste of a position if you already have a Significator on the table. I wasn't happy with "fears," either, as being too generic (for that matter, so is "hopes" and I tweaked that one too), so I put more of a psychological spin on it: now I see it as everything about the querent's "deeper self" that may be working at cross-purposes to the emerging outcome (card #6). So, basically all self-limiting behavior in relation to the matter.
 

MandMaud

Methinx I shall have to try doing the CC everybody's way, at least twice each, to see what works for me! And then create a mishmash version that's entirely MINE.

And in that same book, Dusty White says that the reason it's called a "cross" and is played out in this pattern in the spread is because it's supposedly making the "sign of the cross" as is done in Catholicism when a person makes the motion of crossing themselves.

I think that in different parts of the world, the cross gesture is made in different directions - ending left then right, or right then left. Or maybe that's a difference with Greek or Russian Orthodox... you can tell my background isn't Roman Catholic (or any kind of orthodox). ;) I can't remember why there are the different conventions, whether this signifies something. Nor am I sure if it can relate to the CC. :rolleyes:

Waite called the 7th card "Himself," which seemed pretty useless to me and a waste of a position if you already have a Significator on the table.

Yep, "Self" for position 7 has never meant anything to me.

Great thread, thanks for starting it. Lots of food for thought.
 

Barleywine

I think that in different parts of the world, the cross gesture is made in different directions - ending left then right, or right then left. Or maybe that's a difference with Greek or Russian Orthodox... you can tell my background isn't Roman Catholic (or any kind of orthodox). ;) I can't remember why there are the different conventions, whether this signifies something. Nor am I sure if it can relate to the CC. :rolleyes:

If I understand Waite correctly, where you put the "near future" card depends entirely on which way the Significator is facing. I guess if a deck has the Significator facing straight out of the card, you're SOL and should pick a different spread. Since I like the clockwise flow model as a representation of the diurnal motion of the Sun, I just ignored that idea. Even before I read opinions similar to Louis and White, it looked to me like the "sign of the cross." As a non-Christian (and non-orthodox anything), it always struck me as just a bit earnest and overweening; I never thought of it as "defying gravity" ;))