Early Cartomancy in Germany

Huck

Thanks for your work.
My own French isn't good enough for this, I can summarize that, what I understand (may be about 80-90%). ... :) ... for research interests, that's mostly enough.
 

Padma

Thanks for your work.
My own French isn't good enough for this, I can summarize that, what I understand (may be about 80-90%). ... :) ... for research interests, that's mostly enough.

No problem, let me know if you need help with other passages in French for AT posts. I am glad to help :)
 

Huck

Thanks for your engagement, but I fear, that is too much as long we work on a special theme, which is connected to Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur.
Perhaps it's not too much, if you're interested in the theme, actually this person was an early Canadian (at least born in Canada).

He was the producer of a specific deck type, the Petit Oracle de Dames, a very interesting and important early divination deck (1797).
You can see it here:
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=171379

It has some relations to some other decks, also rather nice. It's a very interesting object, and Jacques Grasset de Saint Sauveur was an interesting man, not only card producer, but also book-author and theater manager. Also active in the French revolution.

If you like it, we can arrange, that you translate, whatever you're interested in. At least from my stuff. I've often quoted French texts.
I can add your translations at the right place.
 

kwaw

He was the producer of a specific deck type, the Petit Oracle de Dames, a very interesting and important early divination deck (1797).
You can see it here:
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=171379

A copy of a 'Jeu du Petit Oracle' at the BnF, which they date c.1795-1799 (it has some minor differences to the 1807):

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10509180t/f1.planchecontact.r=cartes jeu

f3.highres


f1.highres


f35.highres
 

Padma

Thanks for your engagement, but I fear, that is too much as long we work on a special theme, which is connected to Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur.
Perhaps it's not too much, if you're interested in the theme, actually this person was an early Canadian (at least born in Canada).

He was the producer of a specific deck type, the Petit Oracle de Dames, a very interesting and important early divination deck (1797).
You can see it here:
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=171379

It has some relations to some other decks, also rather nice. It's a very interesting object, and Jacques Grasset de Saint Sauveur was an interesting man, not only card producer, but also book-author and theater manager. Also active in the French revolution.

If you like it, we can arrange, that you translate, whatever you're interested in. At least from my stuff. I've often quoted French texts.
I can add your translations at the right place.

Being Canadian, I am interested, yes...what are the exact texts you need translated? If they aren't too long, I don't mind. Not keen on slogging through hundreds of pages, or of translating a whole book, but I don't mind doing a few pages here and there :)
 

Huck

Being Canadian, I am interested, yes...what are the exact texts you need translated? If they aren't too long, I don't mind. Not keen on slogging through hundreds of pages, or of translating a whole book, but I don't mind doing a few pages here and there :)

Personally I'm content, as it is ... this is a place for researchers, and only a few persons really discuss the mentioned topic ... that's me, Philippe, MikeH, kwaw.
I think, the other 3 know better than me about French language.

Actually we have organized ourselves with a researcher slang. It's difficult for others to enter or even to understand a little bit, especially as the situation improves with the time ... which means, that some things, which are true for an early moment, become wrong or superfluous at a later stage.

Kwaw and me were active at the topic in 2012 (we found, that the Petit Oracle des Dames should have been from 1800 at least (instead of 1807, as usually given), later wandered with this interest to another forum. There I found, that the relevant author of the deck should have been Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur. I started to collect some material to the person, but the topic became sleepy, as nobody reacted. Also relations to a 36 cards divination deck became then known called "Nouvel Eteila ou le Petit Necromancien", also a deck of c. 1820, which used some motifs, which belonged to the motifs used by Sauveur.

One problem of this time was, that a "divination deck jeu revolutionnaire, c. 1790, 66 cards" should have prepared the Petit Oracle des Dames according Depaulis, but I couldn't find it.
Kwaw revived the topic short before Christmas 2015. He had detected the missing divination deck jeu revolutionnaire, c. 1790. This triggered a new storm of research.

MikeH had meanwhile organized with the help of others a timeline to the Etteilla development, a great project. The Petit Oracle des dames used also motifs of the Etteilla Tarot deck 1788, so it belonged also to this theme. Philippe entered the discussion likely cause of the detection of the divination deck jeu revolutionnaire, c. 1790, cause in short time it was detected, that it should have had some relation to the city of Grenoble and an earlier "ministre d'Interieure" (Guignard), who had some roots in Grenoble. Philippe lives near Grenoble and knew details of the revolutionary developments in France better than us others. A ministre d'Interieure appears in the deck as a card. Philippe then detected another deck with strong similarity to motifs of the 66-cards deck, a divination deck produced in Moscow 1825.

Various activities led to research successes:

1. Petit Oracle of Dames was already produced in 1797.
2. A variant of the Nouvel Eteila (36 cards) was detected for the year 1797.
3. Sauveur participated in the production of Etteilla decks in 1797, possibly already 1796.
4. The researches to the life of Sauveur were intensified, it became known, that he also worked with theatres. Other literary productions were discussed.
5. Analyses of the relationship of the various connected playing card decks were done.
6. Researches to the circle around Guignard were done.
7. It's suspected, that de la Salette, an Etteilla pupil, formed a connection between the Etteilla circle and the Grenoble circle.

... and much more, a broad stream of activities.

A Canadian aspect: Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur is less known in Canada than one of his brothers called André (he had two with this name). This became one of the first beatified persons of Canada in the Catholic Church (1926). He had died as a martyr in the year 1792. A college got his name in Montreal.

**************

Well, it's a pity, that the common users of AT don't get much of all this excitement ... translations might help a little bit, true.
 

Padma

Thanks for explaining, Huck - that was interesting! I am grateful that you took the time. So instructive! I shall lurk in the wings, and jump in whenever I can help :) I am fascinated by history. Although of course, Philippe can translate quite well for you. But I shall do what I can, and learn along the way :)

I have been to Saint Sauveur in Quebec several times, primarily to go skiing, although I did not know about Jacques Grasset at the time. I do now!

Canada, and Quebec in particular, has a fascinating history. My own grandmother's cousin was Frère André. https://www.saint-joseph.org/en/sanctuary/saint-brother-andre So it looks as though I am related to a saint :angel:
 

Huck

Thanks for explaining, Huck - that was interesting! I am grateful that you took the time. So instructive! I shall lurk in the wings, and jump in whenever I can help :) I am fascinated by history. Although of course, Philippe can translate quite well for you. But I shall do what I can, and learn along the way :)

I have been to Saint Sauveur in Quebec several times, primarily to go skiing, although I did not know about Jacques Grasset at the time. I do now!

Canada, and Quebec in particular, has a fascinating history. My own grandmother's cousin was Frère André. https://www.saint-joseph.org/en/sanctuary/saint-brother-andre So it looks as though I am related to a saint :angel:

I think, that St. Sauveur near Quebec is named after the location St. Sauveur in France. I didn't get the info, how the relevant Grasset family in Montpellier (far from this French St. Sauveur) got this title "de Saint-Sauveur".

Earlier (years ago) I got this information about the Canadian phase of the family, which actually had only a short time in Canada (but the father had a remarkable period). The text might have errors, cause I didn't find much good material. For instance I was in error about the 2 brothers with the name "André", I thought there was only one.

1724
(Father) André Grasset Saint-Sauveur is born in Montpellier. Montpellier had a harbour and was traditionally connected to traffic and trade and journeys on the sea.

10 May 1747
André sailed on a warship as secretary of the new governor general (La Jonquière or "Taffanel") of New France to Canada.
http://www.biographi.ca/009004-119.01-e.php?id_nbr=1672
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques-Pierre_de_Taffanel_de_la_Jonquière,_Marquis_de_la_Jonquière
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques-Pierre_de_Taffanel_de_La_Jonquière
The convoy of 39 ships was attacked after 4 days by 14 English ships with much more canons and La Jonquiere and also André became prisoners. The trading ships could escape, and the French war ships resigned after 5 days fight. They were freed with the peace of Aachen in 1748. La Jonquière landed in Quebec at 17 August 1749.

1 May 1750
Grasset got an "appointment as councillor of the Conseil Supérieur of Quebec", but Grasset had settled in Montreal and didn't claim the post. But he stayed a secretary till 1752.

October 1752
He married Anne-Marie, daughter of Charles Nolan Larmaque ...
http://www.biographi.ca/009004-119.01-e.php?id_nbr=1560
.. and joined the business of his father-in-law. Grasset had already proven, that he might be a clever merchant himself, trading with Indians. The father-in-law died with debts, the wife died in a birth.

1755
A new gouvernor Louis-Philippe de Rigaud, Marquis de Vaudreuil ...
http://www.biographi.ca/009004-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=1621
... renewed the installation of Grasset as "Secretary" and arranged the marriage to a daughter of a rich merchant in Montreal, Jacques Quesnel Fonblanche. But Grasset had his focus on his own business, having two shops in Montreal. His new wife, though young, was well introduced in the business with Indians by her father.

1756 It starts the seven years war in Germany. The war has also resonances in Canada, where English fight against French.

1757
(Son I) Jacques Grasset Saint-Sauveur was born.
1758
(Son II) André Grasset Saint-Sauveur was born.

1759
Battle of Quebec with unlucky result for the French troops.
http://www.britishbattles.com/battle-of-quebec.htm

1760
The governor returned to France. Grasset had been part of the administration.

Added: 3rd son "André" was born (1761)

1761-1763
It developed the "affaire du Canada" ...
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_du_Canada
... and between many others also Grasset was accused in December 1763 (totally there were 55 accusations in the case). The earlier governor was acquitted in 1763.

1763
New France in Canada changed officially from French rule to British rule in this year, mainly due to an unlucky outcome of the war.

Nov. 1764
Grasset returned to France with wife and 5 small children and his 83-years-old father-in-law to meet the accusations.
He appeared at court in January 1764 and his case was dropped in April 1764, with the court not able to prove him guilty.
Jacques Grasset Saint-Sauveur was six years old, when he left Canada. Should one suspect, that his later pictures of Canadian Indians should likely go back to reports or paintings of his mother or his father?

1767
"According to the author of the “Mémoire du Canada,” Grasset had amassed 1,900,000 livres during his stay in Canada. Yet, seven years after the conquest, in August 1767 Grasset claimed that his entire fortune consisted of 317,292 livres in bills of exchange that he had acquired honestly through his two advantageous marriages and his trading activities."

The Father became then a diplomat, mainly in Trieste, which had an advancing state in this time (it belonged to Austria then) and had many embassies. 2 of his sons also were involved in the diplomatic business with the time, also Jacques. Jacques became writer around 1782 and published expensive books about "foreign people" with rather nice costume pictures. He cooperated with the author Sylvain Marechal. Marechal became known as a revolutionary at the political left around 1788 and Jacques accompanied him in these groups. Jacques became the "black sheep" of the family ... at least that's the view of the Catholic biographers of his second brother with the name André, who died in a political massacre 1792. In 1793 Jacques has the last cooperation with Marechal, and starts then very much literary productions in 1796 in the cooperation of a publisher Deroy. In this very active period he also must have organized the production of playing card decks for divination (especially in 1797), Marechal became a conspirator around 1796 and wrote a political manifest (he escaped the persecutions and published with other names). Around 1800 Jacques must have started engagements with theatres. He must have organized a theatre tournee in the "colonies" (1802-1804 ?), which went successless, as the actors couldn't endure the climate. We have only some indications about this time, no real reports. After this he had some other publications till his death.

Finally he was the author of many publications, many of them with well engraved paintings. He cooperated with many engravers, but finally he might have been able to engrave himself (?). Also it seems, that he was able to show sorcery tricks on stage.

Well, never married, a somehow wild life in a rather revolutionary period.