Pluto conjunct mars and mars square mars.

Sharla

Deleted post as don't need advice anymore.
 

dadsnook2000

Wow.

Since you have obviously learned something about how Mars and Pluto is affecting the chart of someone, I'm sure we'd be fascinated to share in that. I'm starting a blog series about the role of Mars at one's Ascendant. I've pulled 32 charts of public-people with this aspect to examine the many different ways that Mars expresses itself.

For example, our bombastic Donald Trump is running for U.S. President and is verbally insulting, denigrating and attacking everyone and everything. Another with Mars, Asc., is Steve Irwin the former Australian naturalist who was personally-and-up-close involved with all kinds of animals until a Sting Ray jabbed him in the heart. His Mars was 'adventurous' and not angry. Bob Barker was a popular American TV Game Show host. He was the most charming and nicely spoken individual on the air. Off the air he funded animal rights efforts, purchased a ship for Green Peace and was very aggressive about protecting animals of all kinds. So, Mars is very wide-ranging in its expression, as is Pluto.

Share with us, if you can.
 

Minderwiz

Dave,

The original post related to Tarot astroogical correspondencs.Sharla drew three cards in answer to a question. From memory, the cards were Tower, Judgement and Ten of clubs (I think I've got the order correct) and the Pluto, Mars, Mars square Mars were the suggested correspondences. They did not seem to fit the situation. So there was no chart.

I, too, was going to respond but on the nature of correspondences. Unfortunately last week was extremely busy and, by the time I got round to it, the post had been deleted.

PS: I just miss out on your Hall of Fame. Mars lies just over 8 degrees from my Ascendant :(. Twelfth house side by quadrant houses but same sign, so first house by whole sign. Mind you that's been subject to rectification, so it's nearly 10 degrees by my parent's estimated time.
 

Sharla

Yes i did delete, sorry.

But yes like Minderwiz says they were a Tarot reading id done of 3 cards, where id assigned astrological signs and planets to each card...as that's something i include now with my readings.

If either of you want me to re-post back what i got and my thoughts, and why i was originally asking for advice then let me know, as i do have the reading wrote down in my book.
 

Minderwiz

Don't know about Dave but I'd be interested in your repost and your thoughts on it.
 

Sharla

Don't know about Dave but I'd be interested in your repost and your thoughts on it.

Okay so im going through a bit of trouble with a guy at present romantically, there's no communication between us at present because of a situation he's in, and i asked the cards what i need to do in regards to him, as i wasn't sure if i should just let go, be patient or whatever etc.

The cards i got were....

Judgement (pluto), tower (mars), 10 cups ( mars in pisces)

The base card was wheel of fortune (Jupiter).

The reason why i asked for advice was because of the aggressiveness coming from the cards, which confused me a little.

So my interpretation was pluto and mars are conjunct here to each other with them both being fire signs, so my take on this was having strength and perseverance in pursuit of my goals and pushing myself beyond and limitations i maybe facing. I know whats right and i need to go forth and push forward in regard to these.

Mars is then square to mars with them being fire + water, so i seen these as me being impatient in regards to what im after and feeling frustrated in regards to what im wanting and probably also being a little too eager in this situation im in with him.

Base card being jupiter im really not sure how this would interact with the rest of the reading, im slightly confused by this one.

So this is where im confused, because in regards to advice of what are they telling me.... i think they are more telling me what i am doing, and not what to do.....BUT that was the question i asked.
 

Minderwiz

One of the reasons I asked you to repost was because I had the feeling, rightly or wrongly, that you were taking to firm a line on your correspondences. I have strong doubts about the use of correspondences, beyond the simple use as triggers to thought - and a willingness to let that thought turn back on itself and reject or strongly modify the correspondences.

The reason for that is that planet, signs and houses are not tarot cards and for that matter, planets are not houses or signs. I mention houses there, even though you did not raise them in your post, because from an astrological perspective, when considering a question such as this, houses would be vital to the answer.

What I'm about to say, you may see as being negative and unhelpful. However I hope to dispel that impression by following up this post with a second which uses Astrology to answer your question - a branch of Astrology that is known as Horary and existed long before Tarot came to Europe. That doesn't make it any better; I simply say it to show that it, too, has a long and distinguished history.

My first point would be that there's no exclusive set of correspondences. Yes, I know that certain deck designers have 'built in' claimed correspondences for their deck but I'm also aware that readers tend to keep to their own perceptions, even if that means ignoring the designer's intentions. So I make this point general to all decks, whether there are claimed correspondences or not.

Judgement, for example, has been identified with Saturn, Mercury, Virgo, Pisces and Fire. That's a fairly disparate set and it's obviously not exclusive as you have used Pluto and I'm sure there are other viewed correspondences for the card.

The Tower (Maison Dieu) has been identified with Capricorn, Scorpio, Jupiter, Venus, Taurus and Mars. (You have used Mars)

The Wheel of Fortune (base card) has been associated with Mercury and Virgo (by quite a few authors) Mars, Scorpio and Jupiter (which you have used). Again you'll see a spread and note that the same correspondences have already been used for other cards from your draw.

I've never used correspondences for individual Minor Arcana cards, but that's by no means any reason not to do it. There's not really an agreement on elements for suits but, If I remember rightly, Cups tends to be seen as Water (though strictly speaking a cup is a water container - something that I'll come back to again in the reading that I did for this question).

My point here in this post is that correspondences shouldn't be seen as literal equations. Judgement is not Pluto (or Saturn or any of the others); The Tower is not Mars (nor any of the others I mentioned) and the Ten of Clubs is not Mars in Pisces (or anything else.) The correspondences are no more than hooks to start building possible trains of thought.

One final point here before I go on to the reading. You said that you took Pluto and Mars to be in conjunction because they are both Fire Signs. Neither Pluto or Mars is a Sign, they are planets and planets do not carry exclusive element meanings. Mars traditionally rules two signs, Aries; which is a Fire Sign and Scorpio; which is a Water sign. However it can and is able to be placed in any of the twelve.

Pluto, of which I have deep reservations, is associated with Scorpio, which is a Water Sign. It's not an association I would personally make. Pluto is seen by many as destroying the old and replacing it with something entirely new. Again that's not something I would subscribe to; though I'm sure Dave would. I raise the point because you appear to draw your conclusion about Mars square Mars, from Pisces being square to a Fire sign (It does square Sagittarius but it also squares Gemini, which is an Air sign.)

So there's no astrological reason why you should treat Mars and Pluto as being conjunct in your reading and no reason why Mars should be squaring itself. Indeed that is a situation that could only occur if you are comparing two charts - for example a natal chart and the transiting planets at a later date. If you are using the three positions to signify Past, Present and Future, then the latter interpretation would make some sense. The Future bringing whatever Mars signifies into conflict with its present situation/meaning/signification.

I'll post my own reading, for the question 'What should I do?' tomorrow. using the background information that you supplied. I won't attempt to interpret the Tarot cards, merely a horary chart for the question. I hope you will find the answer helpful, not necessarily because it's the 'right' answer but because it stimulates you to consider other possibilities or helps to confirm your own perceptions.
 

Sharla

Thankyou for your response and going on your correspondence to me i will give you more to work with, which may be helpful to you.

Im involved (well was ) with a married guy, he's asian and the marriage is an arranged marriage, which to me he said he has no love for her or intimacy there anymore, hence why he has hooked me in....we had a very deep connection, before everything went wrong and come out into the open ( or so i thought).

He's a Scorpio, born on 25/10/1982 at 9.20am in lahore, pakistan...if this helps. Im not sure on my birth chart as i'm adopted and my birth (supposed) mother (supposedly) cannot remember my time...hmmm!!!

But with this guy, i cant get enough of him, its just how he is, and hes totally not even my type of guy....but there is just something about him, which i'm gathering is his sole and not his outer shell....but is that such a bad thing ?

My birth date is 25th august...just no timing. But interesting that he is an exact month date before me.....if this means anything.
 

Jen P

Hi Sharla. If you will remember back a week or two, you pulled some lenormand cards and asked about the same situation. The cards were quite clear and you got a lot of feedback that it would perhaps be healthiest to let it go. Here again, you're getting the same message, IMO.

Since I don't think this should be in the astrology section, I'll PM you. It's very kind of Minderwiz to do a Horary reading for you. I hope it helps.
 

Minderwiz

Horary Reading

Horary is a standalone branch of Astrology which attempts to answer questions that are asked of the Astrologer. A chart is cast by the Astrologer for the moment that they understand the question. It is this chart that is interpreted to provide the answer to the question asked.

I cast a chart for the moment that I finished reading your repost of your initial post. That chart is attached with the question What should I do?

The Ascendant and its ruler are assigned to the person asking the question - technically known as the querent - and in this case, that person is you. The chart has Aquarius rising and its ruler is Saturn. Note that Horary uses the traditional rulers of the signs because they were systematically established at the beginning of Horoscopic Astrology.

Looking at the chart, Saturn is placed in Sagittarius, and is Retrograde. For the chart, I used Whole Sign Houses, which is the original house system for Horary charts (and indeed all charts). Sagittarius is two signs back from Aquarius, so Saturn is in the eleventh house. That's not a bad placement at all, it's one of the better placements and shows that you can act. But Saturn is not strong in Sagittarius, indeed it has no essential dignity of its own. It's also Retrograde (heading in the wrong direction) and it's slow all of which makes it difficult to use the opportunity to act. Basically you don't have much power to affect the situation even though you are not prevented from acting.

The next issue is to decide which planet signifies him. To do that I have to assign him to one of the houses. Given the question is on romance and relationships, I've two options. If he were your husband or partner, or even your prospective partner, I'd assign him to the seventh house, which is Leo and is ruled by the Sun. If I did that the reading would work out very favourably.

However, your statement that the trouble was romantic in nature led me to suspect that I should use the fifth house which rules romance and short term relationships. Your follow up post, explaining that he's a married man, convinced me that this was the correct house to use. In the chart the fifth house is Gemini, ruled by Mercury.

Mercury is placed in Virgo, its own sign. So he has plenty of essential dignity as Virgo is also its exaltation. Mercury is also Fast- he's got the power to act indeed he's brimming over with power but and it's a big but, Virgo is the eighth house, which with the sixth and twelfth houses is one of the worst places in the chart. It's one where action is particularly difficult (relative to the Ascendant - you).

There's one other issue as well. Whereas Saturn is in one of the lower dignities of Mercury, Mercury itself is not in one of the dignities of Saturn. So as far as this question is concerned, you do have some concern and feeling for him (though I'm not sure it's strong enough and I'll return to that in a moment) but he's concerned overwhelmingly with his own situation and also with his family, particularly his siblings. At the moment you don't come into it.

Normally the next stage is to look and see if there are any aspects forming between the significators. In this case there is an aspect forming. Mercury at 6 degrees Virgo is applying to a square to Saturn at 9 degrees Sagittarius. Squares signify delays, obstacles, arguments, problems. As Saturn is Retrograde, this square is mutually applying, suggesting that things might come to a sudden clash between you.

You said that he's not your type of guy. That doesn't surprise me, as Sagittarius is the Detriment of Mercury, Really you shouldn't be attracted to him. That's something you recognise but you believe that there's something below his exterior appearances that attracts you. I'm unsure whether that something is enough. Indeed on the evidence of this chart, I'd say that something was not enough to overcome this situation, even from your perspective. From his, there's no motivational factor.

I think you probably realise this already. Even if you don't, you soon will. Saturn stations Direct late on the 13 th of August. After that it begins to move in the opposite (and 'normal') direction. But by then the damage will have been done because that square between significators will occur whilst Saturn is Retrograde. There after Mercury leaves Saturn behind.

So you have some serious thinking to do. You also have to ask yourself whether he really will leave his family for you and even if he did, whether that marriage break up would remain a barrier between you. This chart does not show a happy ending to your relationship with him.

This morning, when I read JenP's post I decided to cast another chart just to verify my reading (the chart is Sharla.pdf). The second chart again has the Ascendant Ruler and Lord 5 in a square. In this case Saturn is Lord 5 and the Ascendant ruler is Mercury. Same two significators (though reversed) yielding the same result.

Coming back to your original Tarot reading. In a real sense my Horary reading backs up the idea of a clash, potentially an explosive clash if you pursue the matter. So your interpretation of the symbolism was probably right. I note that in both charts, Mars is moving towards Saturn and as the first chart was a Day chart (the Sun had not yet set) Mars is much more troublesome than normal.

What should you do? Back away and let the relationship go. Avoid the clash and have nothing to do with any break up of his marriage. If it does break up without your involvement, then there might be some hope someway down the line. But I don't really see that coming to fruition, yet it's your only chance.

Back away and let the relationship go.
 

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