Waite and his numerous "veils"

arya ishtar

My post was mostly referring to waite's pomposity (For example, his dismissing the fact that he switched the order of the cards strength and justice with a "never you mind...") but also the attitude of the "educated" towards the amateurs, both here and elsewhere. (Something that has been discussed about this very forum on other tarot blogs.)

I have never been a "joiner", but that in no way makes my search any less valid than those who have the time, money, and connections to devote to it.

Also, though the question was likely sarcasm, i don't have all the answers, but if i did, I'd damn sure share them -in plain English - with those who want to know.
 

arya ishtar

Apparently you have never belonged to a legitimate esoteric initiatory order.

Don't think you meant it to, but that kinda sounds like what I was talking about. Not trying to start a fight, am stating my opinion and how some of us outsiders see it.
 

Teheuti

1) Waite honored his oaths of secrecy.

2) Waite was a pompous ass with a big chip on his shoulder regarding his position in life and lack of higher education.

3) Waite was dealing with complex subjects and he saw the ultimate goal as being a transcendant mystical experience - all very difficult to write about.

4) His text on the card interpretations is remarkably clear (for the most part), if somewhat sparse.

5) Waite probably also believed that there was benefit to be gained in having to look into a subject matter deeply, rather than being handed information-without-understanding, and so he left clues for those who really wanted to plumb the depths of wisdom (the High Priestess/Sophia).

Try reading a wikipedia article on Thermodynamics. I'm sure you can find a more simplified explanation somewhere but does that mean you really understand thermodynamics?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamics
 

Teheuti

Regarding the "switching" of Strength and Justice: Waite was following the Golden Dawn and the cipher manuscript, but the reasons for it were covered by his oath. Even if they weren't, there is a precedent in old decks where the Virtues appear in a variety of places in the sequence. In one deck both Strength and Justice were numbered VIII (probably a slip of the knife when making the woodcut, where one of them was supposed to be numbered VIIII).
 

Teheuti

If you look up in a 19th century British dictionary the words Waite used and that you find unfamiliar, you'll discover that he was remarkably precise with his vocabulary - choosing words with much more exactitude than most people.
 

Richard

Don't think you meant it to, but that kinda sounds like what I was talking about. Not trying to start a fight, am stating my opinion and how some of us outsiders see it.
One may have to take an oath to keep certain things secret. This is not intended to engender a feeling of superiority.

It's perfectly natural to distrust the unknown. We all tend to judge people and things that we don't completely understand, but sometimes we're wrong.
 

sworm09

My post was mostly referring to waite's pomposity (For example, his dismissing the fact that he switched the order of the cards strength and justice with a "never you mind...") but also the attitude of the "educated" towards the amateurs, both here and elsewhere. (Something that has been discussed about this very forum on other tarot blogs.)

I have never been a "joiner", but that in no way makes my search any less valid than those who have the time, money, and connections to devote to it.

Also, though the question was likely sarcasm, i don't have all the answers, but if i did, I'd damn sure share them -in plain English - with those who want to know.

It's been a while since I started this post, and since then I've studied and learn a lot. From this position I feel like you're being a little unfair to Waite.

First, I must agree with you; Waite was arrogant. There's not doubt about it, and he didn't have many friends because of that BUT that had little to do with his writings on the Tarot. Waite's deck was meant to be a exoteric version of the GD deck and he was under oath as to not explain the esoteric meanings of the cards, so it's only natural that he not go into detail in his writings. To be fair, he does leave very subtle hints in his writings for those that are familiar with esoteric philosophy and he even sort of left "bread crumbs" for those that knew nothing about it, so that even the uninitiated public could trace Waite's steps and discover the information for themselves.

As for switching Strength and Justice, his reasons for doing so are clear: He wanted to reestablish the zodiacal order of the trumps. He doesn't explain why he changed the order because doing so would have required him to reveal the correspondences of the trumps thereby going against his oath. To remedy the problem he just doesn't explain it.

I think that looking at Waite's position, he actually revealed as much as he could without going against his oath. To be fair, no one can blame him for not outright telling everything.
 

ravenest

The thing is ... Waite, the G.D. and (if I may make an outrageous assumption) the RW Tarot itself are into 'the mysteries' ... the mystery tradition, the occult, the 'hidden world', the interior realm of Shamans, mythologies, religion, philosophy, magic, the underworld, astrology, etc. call it what you will

These things often don't lend themselves to 'plain English', that is why, since the first glimmer of human culture man has used imagery, analogy, symbolism, etc. to communicate about this otherworld. The deeper the mystery the less likely plain English is going to do the job.

We reserve plain English to describe a certain 'function' of Tarot in some cases, e.g. "Yes, that guy at work is interested in you." - Don't need no esoteric lingo there.

As far as 'other people' or 'other sites' not liking the attitude here, I am sure this unapproving 'phantom collective' feel much more comfortable where they have settled. It is good to know AT has gained a reputation for expert, scholastic, deep and penetrative insight and will debate and argue an issue, especially if it seems flawed ... the great philosophers did it ... they do it in Buddhist monasteries ... but apparently some feel threatened by it.
 

Richard

.......I have never been a "joiner", but that in no way makes my search any less valid than those who have the time, money, and connections to devote to it.

Also, though the question was likely sarcasm, i don't have all the answers, but if i did, I'd damn sure share them -in plain English - with those who want to know.
It is not necessary to join any organization in order to get to the root of what Waite was talking about. It might require a little time and effort, however.

In a nutshell, the interchange of Trumps 8 and 11 was explained by Sworm09. If Waite had not been bound by oaths, Pictorial Key might have been an entirely different book. A full explanation of the interchange of 8 and 11 requires at the least the following: an understanding of the classification of the Hebrew alphabet into mother, double, and simple letters; the Sepher Yetzirah and the astrological attributions of the simple letters; the correlation of the Trumps with the Hebrew alphabet; the necessity of associating Force with Leo and Justice with Libra. Given Waite's inclination to wordiness, the Pictorial Key might have grown into an enormous Tarot encyclopedia, which probably would have been unfeasible at that time.

This may all seem vastly complicated, but so does a foreign language when one is learning it. In fact, it is all quite simple and natural. The biggest hurdle is getting over the technical terminology and concepts.
 

Zephyros

I began studying the occult about two years ago, and since then have gone through many permutations in my views of things. When I first started out I was all "meh, RWS," and now, I'm "WOW, the RWS!!" Same goes for the PKT. I used to think it obscure and pompous, and now I find that with a little work, I can glean much information from it. And of course, then there is Waite, against whom I railed even in this thread, but have learned to respect since then. While he could indeed be considered pompous and arrogant, I begin to see the reasoning behind the things he said and did, and from a certain point of view, they even make sense.

Waite set out to design a deck and book for the mass market, and as such there was no possible way for him to reveal everything the deck contained because, as LRichard said, doing so would entail writing an entire Tarot encyclopedia. Whole books could be written about the interchange of Strength and Justice, but that just wasn't what he intended to do, oaths or no oaths. Even saying that doing so would violate his oaths of revealing the attributions of the Trumps is a simplification; it would entail him revealing what correspondences are in the first place, what Kabbalah is, why it is used, why Tarot, why GD... In this day and age when everything is a Google search away, it is easy to explain complicated things in a few words, because everyone has the context. This was not the case then. New Age was in its infancy and Hermetic Kabbalah unknown to all but a few. Seen in the context of its times, and knowing what to look for, the PKT can seem a little too talkative at times, and even I am surprised by how explicit it can be.

While his remarks could be seen as dismissive, I think he is dismissing the material itself as being too involved for the general reader. To even begin to explain it would entail writing perhaps hundreds of pages on the rudiments of astrology and Kabbalah which, again, oaths or no oaths, simply weren't in the scope of his intent. Can Waite be blamed for thinking both big, in creating the first visual esoteric deck, and too small at the same time? I don't think that's fair at all.

I have never been a "joiner", but that in no way makes my search any less valid than those who have the time, money, and connections to devote to it.

Unfortunately, it does, and I say this as a non-member of anything myself. I once complained about the obscurity of a book about the Thoth, and was soundly taken to task by a member here. You and I, we simply aren't the target audience for such things, and while this means that we have far more flexibility on one hand, it also means that in certain things we will always be looking over the fence at a party we weren't invited to. Waite's main concern was his own order, and did not, perhaps, have the scope of thought to imagine laymen being interested in the occult (a pompous Victorian gentleman, of course).

Also, though the question was likely sarcasm, i don't have all the answers, but if i did, I'd damn sure share them -in plain English - with those who want to know.

Like ravenest said, there are certain things that cannot, and should not, be spoonfed. If anyone were to ask me about the interchange I could tell them in a few words, and they would have gained little by it. However, I would most likely tell them to construct their own reasons for it experientially, by reading any number of books and meditating on the Tree of Life, as I did, and do, and heaven knows I'm a beginning student in everything here, and am not talking out of pomposity.

It is like the Emperor/Star interchange in the Thoth. I have read so much about it, texts that do purport to explain it in plain English. I still don't understand it at all and will probably have to resign myself to that. But still, even simple explanations aren't always that simple, if one does not have the tools with which to understand them. Much of the Book of Thoth is incomprehensible in anything but a shallow understanding, unless one belongs to certain organizations or has spent several years practicing Ceremonial and Sex Magick.

The PKT's purpose is limited, perhaps the first Tarot for Dummies but one can't find fault with its own inherent purpose, especially as all the answers are in Waite's other writings, just not easily and cheaply paraphrased in one easy-to-read booklet. He did explain things in plain English, just not in the PKT. I must admit to not having read his books, not being the focus of my study, but even a cursory look at the Wikipedia entry about him shows that his other books do, indeed, treat with subjects the PKT doesn't: "A number of his volumes remain in print, including The Book of Ceremonial Magic (1911), The Holy Kabbalah (1929), A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry (1921), and his edited translation of Eliphas Levi's 1896 Transcendental Magic, its Doctrine and Ritual (1910)." He was under no obligation to include it all in one volume, even Crowley didn't do that.

Personally I suspect that the problem lies not with him, but with us. The PKT has become the go-to book for all things Tarot, being included in almost every deck and even when it isn't, most texts with divinatory meanings are based on it anyway, and so fault is found with it when it fails to live up to that role. However, it was probably never meant to be the sole text upon which modern Tarot divination is based on. It's just one book.