Moongold
Could someone explain what this means? I can see how to do it with this software (Janus) but the software does not define what rectify is or the purpose for doing it.
Many thanks
Moongold
Many thanks
Moongold
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Rectified charts
Minderwiz
Rectification is concerned with trying to find a birth time that enables accurate predictions to be made.
For many people, their birth time may not be accurate. Certainly in England and Wales, the birth time is not recorded at the time, and people have to go on the recollections of parents or others. Even in countries where the birth time is officially recorded, there may be an error of several minutes or longer - because no one looks at the clock at the precise moment and only estimate the time later.
An error in the birth time can have a significant effect on the natal position of the Moon, or even Mercury, Venus or the Sun (OK it's in terms of minutes of arc rather than degrees but it is still there).
If the natal Moon is out by say two degrees, this may mean an error of weeks or months on the use of transits of the outer planets - especially if the planet turns retrograde or stations. The mean motion of Saturn is a little over two minutes a day - an error of one degree in the Moon's natal position will, on average, produce an error of about a month in predictions based on the tranists of Saturn. Uraunus moves at just over a third of this rate - so an error of three months may occur on predictions based on transits. The situation is worse with progressions - the progressed Moon moves at a similar rate to Saturn and the progressed Sun at about one degree per year. Thus a progressed Sun to natal Moon aspect may actually occur a year earlier or later than the birth chart might suggest on a one degree error in the Moon's natal position. With some predictive methods an error of even four minutes (time) on the birth time may put predictions out be a year.
There are several ways of rectification but the main approach is to identify significant events in a person's life, look to see whether these are reflected by transits and/or progressions and if not, whether there is a pattern of error - e.g. the events seem to occur about one year later than the forecast suggests. Adjust the birth time so that the events occur in line with predictions.
The rectified chart can then be used with any future predictions with greater confidence. There is no way of proving that the birth actually took place at the rectified time, but as long as it provides more accurate predictions that is all that mattters.
For many people, their birth time may not be accurate. Certainly in England and Wales, the birth time is not recorded at the time, and people have to go on the recollections of parents or others. Even in countries where the birth time is officially recorded, there may be an error of several minutes or longer - because no one looks at the clock at the precise moment and only estimate the time later.
An error in the birth time can have a significant effect on the natal position of the Moon, or even Mercury, Venus or the Sun (OK it's in terms of minutes of arc rather than degrees but it is still there).
If the natal Moon is out by say two degrees, this may mean an error of weeks or months on the use of transits of the outer planets - especially if the planet turns retrograde or stations. The mean motion of Saturn is a little over two minutes a day - an error of one degree in the Moon's natal position will, on average, produce an error of about a month in predictions based on the tranists of Saturn. Uraunus moves at just over a third of this rate - so an error of three months may occur on predictions based on transits. The situation is worse with progressions - the progressed Moon moves at a similar rate to Saturn and the progressed Sun at about one degree per year. Thus a progressed Sun to natal Moon aspect may actually occur a year earlier or later than the birth chart might suggest on a one degree error in the Moon's natal position. With some predictive methods an error of even four minutes (time) on the birth time may put predictions out be a year.
There are several ways of rectification but the main approach is to identify significant events in a person's life, look to see whether these are reflected by transits and/or progressions and if not, whether there is a pattern of error - e.g. the events seem to occur about one year later than the forecast suggests. Adjust the birth time so that the events occur in line with predictions.
The rectified chart can then be used with any future predictions with greater confidence. There is no way of proving that the birth actually took place at the rectified time, but as long as it provides more accurate predictions that is all that mattters.
Barleywine
Comparative Chart for Surgery
Since this is the only general rectification thread I could find, I decided to post this here. I'm (finally) working on rectifying my father's natal chart. He's 87 and has twice had stent surgery for an aortal aneurism, so I'm looking for some indication of when his next "event" might be. We have no idea of his actual birth time. So far I've only done a little with major life events, as I'm focusing first on a reasonable "profile" of angles and planetary placements.
He has a very placid demeanor and calm, gentle temperament, so I postulated a negative sign on the Ascendant to go with his Cancer sun. I started with Pisces since it would place all of my late mother's Virgo emphasis in his 7th (Placidus) house. Nothing else clicked so I tried Virgo ascending. Since my mother was a very strong matriarchal figure who molded him and often spoke for him, her Sun in his 1st house seemed plausible. Nothing else fit, though. Then my wife suggested that he could possibly be a double Cancer. Since he is clearly not a 1st house Sun type, and emphatically not angular, I erected a chart with a late degree of Cancer rising that pushes his Sun back into the 12th house, beyond the 5 degree band. This created a number of interesting "broad-brush" scenarios.
This places his Moon-Jupiter-Part of Fortune conjunction in the middle of the 5th house, supporting the idea of MANY children (he had nine); it places Saturn in the 4th house, and my earliest memory of him is that he was never home; the fact that he was a long-haul truck driver seems to be consistent with this and with Sagittarius on the 6th (travel-as-work); Mars in Pisces went into the 8th, and my mother died when transiting Uranus was in the 8th and opposed natal Neptune, symbolically liberating him from his 10-year-long caregiver role (she was a diabetic amputee with congestive heart failure); Uranus in Pisces in the 9th reflects his long-time fascination with a certain "cult" religion (albeit a wealthy one), and the close trine to his 12th house Sun shows just how readily he identifies himself with it (or, more accurately, surrenders himself to it); Mercury in Cancer is void-of-course in the 1st, and he has always been ripe for thought-control by a dominant partner (his second wife is a mirror-image of the first in that regard); Aries is on the MC - he was always a very energetic and enterprising - although not entrepreneurial - career man with a strong union affiliation, and he worked two physically demanding jobs for much of his life; and finally, the 12th house Sun seems to fit well with the fact that he is perfectly content staying in the background as long as he has a forceful partner to "pour himself into."
I ran the prenatal New Moon calculation and came up with a natal Ascendant that is less than 5 degrees different from the one I had projected. Since it pushed the Sun almost onto the angle, I decided to stay with my original 12th house Sun chart. That amount of discrepancy seems well within a reasonable margin of error for the time of conception. Next I ran the secondary progressions for the planets and the solar-arc direction for the MC. This places the progressed Moon in Aquarius, moving through the 8th house and the progressed Sun in Libra in the 4th house. He will have the first (direct) hit of a belated 4th-house Saturn return (his third one!) on November 11, the retrograde hit in April of next year, and the final direct hit in August 2012. This also places the progressed MC in close conjunction to his natal 12th house Venus in Cancer.
That's as far as I got to date. I still need to get a better grip on transits for the period of his two surgeries, for my mother's death, and for his second marriage. And I still need to run down all the transiting and progressed aspects. But all of this shows preliminary promise from an "anecdotal evidence" perspective. On his website, Chris Brennan has "5 Tips for Natal Chart Rectification" that I may take a look at as well. As many people have commented, rectification is primarily a "visual art," and isn't something you can successfully program into a computer.
Any thoughts from anyone?
Edit: On further investigation, I found that, at the time of my mother's death, transiting Saturn was making a partile T-square (apex Saturn) to my father's (rectified) natal 2nd-8th house nodal axis from his 11th house. Ebertin says of negative Saturn/Node contacts: "Inhibitions or difficulties in associations or partnerships, terminations of blood-relationships, the death of relatives or kindred."
Edit #2: I generated an event chart for the time of his second marriage; lots of contacts to the radical chart there: Sun (t) angular, conjunct natal MC w/in 1 degree and square Venus (r); Moon (t) trine Venus (r); Venus (t) square Ascendant & Mercury (r); Mars (t) sextile Sun (r); Jupiter (t) conjunct Venus & PF (r); Jupiter & PF (t) trine Mars (r); Jupiter (t) square MC (r); Saturn (t) sextile MC (r); Saturn (t) opposition Moon & Jupiter (r).
All of the transiting planets except the Moon were above the horizon of his natal chart. The Moon position in the 4th house showed that he finally found another "mother" after being a lost soul for the year after my mother died. There are as many hard aspects as soft ones in this comparison, showing that this was an extremely stressful time for him emotionally.
Edit #3: I erected an event chart for the date and time of his second surgery. All by itself, the chart is revealing. Saturn in Libra (exalted) was angular, conjunct the MC within a couple of degrees and the North Node, also angular, was conjunct the Ascendant within the same orb, apparently showing that he gave himself over into the hands of the surgeons at that time. Sun, Venus and Mercury were conjunct in the 8th house of surgery, in Leo which rules the aorta (the subject of the surgery); Venus was within 1 minute of exact (Cazimi) and Mercury was retrograde and within just over 1 degree of exact (combust).
When compared to the natal chart, transiting Sun, Mercury and Venus were conjunct the MNN (r) within a few minutes of arc, in the 2nd house; Moon (t) was trine the Ascendant (r); Mars (t) was square the MC (r) and conjunct Pluto (r); Saturn (t) was square Pluto (r) and widely (5 degrees) opposed the natal MC, making a slightly loose T-square with Mars-Pluto at the apex (Ebertin says “a fateful struggle”); Uranus was widely (4 degrees) conjunct the MC (r). Before he had the surgery, I cast an astro-geomancy chart that showed he would come through the surgery well, both in the short term and the long term. In retrospect, I don't see much in this event chart that would have changed my mind. The two-hour surgery did drag on for over 6 hours, though, which may have been related to the retrograde and combust Mercury and the opposition of Saturn to the natal MC.
Rectification is concerned with trying to find a birth time that enables accurate predictions to be made.
There are several ways of rectification but the main approach is to identify significant events in a person's life, look to see whether these are reflected by transits and/or progressions and if not, whether there is a pattern of error - e.g. the events seem to occur about one year later than the forecast suggests. Adjust the birth time so that the events occur in line with predictions.
The rectified chart can then be used with any future predictions with greater confidence. There is no way of proving that the birth actually took place at the rectified time, but as long as it provides more accurate predictions that is all that mattters.
Since this is the only general rectification thread I could find, I decided to post this here. I'm (finally) working on rectifying my father's natal chart. He's 87 and has twice had stent surgery for an aortal aneurism, so I'm looking for some indication of when his next "event" might be. We have no idea of his actual birth time. So far I've only done a little with major life events, as I'm focusing first on a reasonable "profile" of angles and planetary placements.
He has a very placid demeanor and calm, gentle temperament, so I postulated a negative sign on the Ascendant to go with his Cancer sun. I started with Pisces since it would place all of my late mother's Virgo emphasis in his 7th (Placidus) house. Nothing else clicked so I tried Virgo ascending. Since my mother was a very strong matriarchal figure who molded him and often spoke for him, her Sun in his 1st house seemed plausible. Nothing else fit, though. Then my wife suggested that he could possibly be a double Cancer. Since he is clearly not a 1st house Sun type, and emphatically not angular, I erected a chart with a late degree of Cancer rising that pushes his Sun back into the 12th house, beyond the 5 degree band. This created a number of interesting "broad-brush" scenarios.
This places his Moon-Jupiter-Part of Fortune conjunction in the middle of the 5th house, supporting the idea of MANY children (he had nine); it places Saturn in the 4th house, and my earliest memory of him is that he was never home; the fact that he was a long-haul truck driver seems to be consistent with this and with Sagittarius on the 6th (travel-as-work); Mars in Pisces went into the 8th, and my mother died when transiting Uranus was in the 8th and opposed natal Neptune, symbolically liberating him from his 10-year-long caregiver role (she was a diabetic amputee with congestive heart failure); Uranus in Pisces in the 9th reflects his long-time fascination with a certain "cult" religion (albeit a wealthy one), and the close trine to his 12th house Sun shows just how readily he identifies himself with it (or, more accurately, surrenders himself to it); Mercury in Cancer is void-of-course in the 1st, and he has always been ripe for thought-control by a dominant partner (his second wife is a mirror-image of the first in that regard); Aries is on the MC - he was always a very energetic and enterprising - although not entrepreneurial - career man with a strong union affiliation, and he worked two physically demanding jobs for much of his life; and finally, the 12th house Sun seems to fit well with the fact that he is perfectly content staying in the background as long as he has a forceful partner to "pour himself into."
I ran the prenatal New Moon calculation and came up with a natal Ascendant that is less than 5 degrees different from the one I had projected. Since it pushed the Sun almost onto the angle, I decided to stay with my original 12th house Sun chart. That amount of discrepancy seems well within a reasonable margin of error for the time of conception. Next I ran the secondary progressions for the planets and the solar-arc direction for the MC. This places the progressed Moon in Aquarius, moving through the 8th house and the progressed Sun in Libra in the 4th house. He will have the first (direct) hit of a belated 4th-house Saturn return (his third one!) on November 11, the retrograde hit in April of next year, and the final direct hit in August 2012. This also places the progressed MC in close conjunction to his natal 12th house Venus in Cancer.
That's as far as I got to date. I still need to get a better grip on transits for the period of his two surgeries, for my mother's death, and for his second marriage. And I still need to run down all the transiting and progressed aspects. But all of this shows preliminary promise from an "anecdotal evidence" perspective. On his website, Chris Brennan has "5 Tips for Natal Chart Rectification" that I may take a look at as well. As many people have commented, rectification is primarily a "visual art," and isn't something you can successfully program into a computer.
Any thoughts from anyone?
Edit: On further investigation, I found that, at the time of my mother's death, transiting Saturn was making a partile T-square (apex Saturn) to my father's (rectified) natal 2nd-8th house nodal axis from his 11th house. Ebertin says of negative Saturn/Node contacts: "Inhibitions or difficulties in associations or partnerships, terminations of blood-relationships, the death of relatives or kindred."
Edit #2: I generated an event chart for the time of his second marriage; lots of contacts to the radical chart there: Sun (t) angular, conjunct natal MC w/in 1 degree and square Venus (r); Moon (t) trine Venus (r); Venus (t) square Ascendant & Mercury (r); Mars (t) sextile Sun (r); Jupiter (t) conjunct Venus & PF (r); Jupiter & PF (t) trine Mars (r); Jupiter (t) square MC (r); Saturn (t) sextile MC (r); Saturn (t) opposition Moon & Jupiter (r).
All of the transiting planets except the Moon were above the horizon of his natal chart. The Moon position in the 4th house showed that he finally found another "mother" after being a lost soul for the year after my mother died. There are as many hard aspects as soft ones in this comparison, showing that this was an extremely stressful time for him emotionally.
Edit #3: I erected an event chart for the date and time of his second surgery. All by itself, the chart is revealing. Saturn in Libra (exalted) was angular, conjunct the MC within a couple of degrees and the North Node, also angular, was conjunct the Ascendant within the same orb, apparently showing that he gave himself over into the hands of the surgeons at that time. Sun, Venus and Mercury were conjunct in the 8th house of surgery, in Leo which rules the aorta (the subject of the surgery); Venus was within 1 minute of exact (Cazimi) and Mercury was retrograde and within just over 1 degree of exact (combust).
When compared to the natal chart, transiting Sun, Mercury and Venus were conjunct the MNN (r) within a few minutes of arc, in the 2nd house; Moon (t) was trine the Ascendant (r); Mars (t) was square the MC (r) and conjunct Pluto (r); Saturn (t) was square Pluto (r) and widely (5 degrees) opposed the natal MC, making a slightly loose T-square with Mars-Pluto at the apex (Ebertin says “a fateful struggle”); Uranus was widely (4 degrees) conjunct the MC (r). Before he had the surgery, I cast an astro-geomancy chart that showed he would come through the surgery well, both in the short term and the long term. In retrospect, I don't see much in this event chart that would have changed my mind. The two-hour surgery did drag on for over 6 hours, though, which may have been related to the retrograde and combust Mercury and the opposition of Saturn to the natal MC.
Minderwiz
Some very interesting observations there, especially in the 'edits'.
You raise a number of issues, either directly or indirectly which are worth exploring, or at least should be explored by anyone who intends to do a rectification.
I suppose the first issue is 'What is the purpose of rectification?'
This isn't easy to answer exactly but there does seem to be two broad reasons: Firstly;
To make the chart fit the observed characteristics of the native
That is, to come up with a chart that seems to fit the personality and characteristics of the person whose birth we are investigating. And I've seen people who are not happy with their charts, as a descriptor of themselves rectifying their charts for a better 'fit'. Getting a chart that we are 'happy' with is the end of the process and it's not really used for any other person than character analysis.
Secondly;
To better predict future events in the native's life
This seems to be the original reason, but clearly the two reasons whilst distinct, are not completely independent - knowing someone's personality may help us predict how they will behave in particularly situations that we see as being possible in the future.
Reason 2 also requires that we should test the rectified chart against known events in the person's life up till now - hence your attempts to compare transits at 'special' events to the native chart is the right way to proceed This second reason is for me the more interesting of the two.
There are two further issues that need to be addressed:
The methods and techniques for predictions
The accuracy level that is acceptable for our predictions
Modern Astrology tends to have two methods for predictions in natal Astrology - transits (especially outer planets) and Secondary Progressions (especially the Moon)
The problem with using transits is that there are so many of them it is a huge task to set these out for a period of several years, let alone a lifetime. As is often observed, transits don't always work (nothing happens). That's why I see transits as part of a more extensive predictive system. Dave uses Solar Returns as the base for predctions, and from these additional methods (such as progressing the daily angles or daily or monthly transits) can help identifying key events. I also use Solar Returns, and have also tried using other longer term methods in conjunction with Solar Returns - such as Primary Directions and Profections. I'm currently reading Abu Ma'shar, who should be Dave's hero, being the first Astrologer who explicitly refers to casting a Solar Return Chart. He uses Profections and Firdaria in conjunction with Solar Returns plus Directions through Bounds (Terms). Other Medievals and Lilly and Morin used Primary Directions with Solar Returns. Transits formed an important but still a tertiary technique used in conjunction with these methods.
Now it seems that the use of Primary Directions provided the need for accurate birth times and hence the use of rectification techniques. So you might find that later on you need a more general method that covers the medium and longer terms for predictions.
The second issue is accuracy. Do we expect to be able to predict the day (or even hour) of events in our, or other's lives? And to what extent, if any, is a person free to choose their actions, for example if we predict that a person might be injured in a car accident, can they act in such a way to avoid the car accident and if they do does that mean our prediction was 'wrong'?
That's to big an issue to discuss in depth here, but it at least suggests that actual events are stochastic, rather than deterministic and we should expect some 'errors' in our predictive systems. That means that we have to set an arbitrary (for us) level of acceptability when testing a predictive method, and also requires us to be able to distinguish a 'failure' in terms of whether it's primarily a method failure or a failure of rectification (if used).
I
You raise a number of issues, either directly or indirectly which are worth exploring, or at least should be explored by anyone who intends to do a rectification.
I suppose the first issue is 'What is the purpose of rectification?'
This isn't easy to answer exactly but there does seem to be two broad reasons: Firstly;
To make the chart fit the observed characteristics of the native
That is, to come up with a chart that seems to fit the personality and characteristics of the person whose birth we are investigating. And I've seen people who are not happy with their charts, as a descriptor of themselves rectifying their charts for a better 'fit'. Getting a chart that we are 'happy' with is the end of the process and it's not really used for any other person than character analysis.
Secondly;
To better predict future events in the native's life
This seems to be the original reason, but clearly the two reasons whilst distinct, are not completely independent - knowing someone's personality may help us predict how they will behave in particularly situations that we see as being possible in the future.
Reason 2 also requires that we should test the rectified chart against known events in the person's life up till now - hence your attempts to compare transits at 'special' events to the native chart is the right way to proceed This second reason is for me the more interesting of the two.
There are two further issues that need to be addressed:
The methods and techniques for predictions
The accuracy level that is acceptable for our predictions
Modern Astrology tends to have two methods for predictions in natal Astrology - transits (especially outer planets) and Secondary Progressions (especially the Moon)
The problem with using transits is that there are so many of them it is a huge task to set these out for a period of several years, let alone a lifetime. As is often observed, transits don't always work (nothing happens). That's why I see transits as part of a more extensive predictive system. Dave uses Solar Returns as the base for predctions, and from these additional methods (such as progressing the daily angles or daily or monthly transits) can help identifying key events. I also use Solar Returns, and have also tried using other longer term methods in conjunction with Solar Returns - such as Primary Directions and Profections. I'm currently reading Abu Ma'shar, who should be Dave's hero, being the first Astrologer who explicitly refers to casting a Solar Return Chart. He uses Profections and Firdaria in conjunction with Solar Returns plus Directions through Bounds (Terms). Other Medievals and Lilly and Morin used Primary Directions with Solar Returns. Transits formed an important but still a tertiary technique used in conjunction with these methods.
Now it seems that the use of Primary Directions provided the need for accurate birth times and hence the use of rectification techniques. So you might find that later on you need a more general method that covers the medium and longer terms for predictions.
The second issue is accuracy. Do we expect to be able to predict the day (or even hour) of events in our, or other's lives? And to what extent, if any, is a person free to choose their actions, for example if we predict that a person might be injured in a car accident, can they act in such a way to avoid the car accident and if they do does that mean our prediction was 'wrong'?
That's to big an issue to discuss in depth here, but it at least suggests that actual events are stochastic, rather than deterministic and we should expect some 'errors' in our predictive systems. That means that we have to set an arbitrary (for us) level of acceptability when testing a predictive method, and also requires us to be able to distinguish a 'failure' in terms of whether it's primarily a method failure or a failure of rectification (if used).
I
Barleywine
I tend to look for contacts to the rectified MC and then the Ascendant, Sun, Moon and the lunar nodes (connections and separations; beginnings and endings) regardless of the technique, bringing in other planets depending on the focus of the investigation (Venus/Mars, for example). I certainly agree that transits are tertiary and not especially reliable (although in the case of my father's wedding there was plenty to see). I use the secondary progressions mainly for Sun through Mars (but also pay attention to any ingresses), the Solar Arc MC/Ascendant combination, and the transits of Jupiter through Pluto with the faster planets as timing "triggers." I do think transits have their place in event or election charts; for example, if he wasn't such a Christian zealot I might have advised my Dad to delay surgery with Mercury retrograde and combust. I also use the Solar Return chart and the prenatal New Moon. I need to look into Primary Directions and Profections as I expand my knowledge of classical methods. And I'm interested in seeing Dave's work on precession-corrected solar returns.
Accurate forecasting would seem to be the most compelling reason for doing a rigorous rectification. Bringing the natal chart into sharper focus for character analysis would not typically require quite as much precision, in my opinion. Given my father's advanced age and his medical history, I'm primarily interested in whether we can expect a continuing long, slow decline or a sudden, sharp demise. Thing are stacking up in his 4th and 8th houses but the 4th-house Saturn return hits won't be until November of this year, then in April and August of next year, and the 8th-house progressed Moon won't be making any significant contacts until its conjunction to MSN in October of this year and conjunction to Mars next July. One of the reasons I put rectified Saturn in the 4th was because of the "end of the matter" connotations of that house (as well as because much of the rest of the chart "clicked," and progressed Sun is in the 4th too). I figured that the impending Saturn return there along with the 8th-house progressed Moon/MSN contact and its subsequent excursion through the Terms of Mars and Saturn between now and next March could be worth paying close attention to. If any of this pans out, it will be another confirmation for what increasingly looks like a valid rectified chart.
Accurate forecasting would seem to be the most compelling reason for doing a rigorous rectification. Bringing the natal chart into sharper focus for character analysis would not typically require quite as much precision, in my opinion. Given my father's advanced age and his medical history, I'm primarily interested in whether we can expect a continuing long, slow decline or a sudden, sharp demise. Thing are stacking up in his 4th and 8th houses but the 4th-house Saturn return hits won't be until November of this year, then in April and August of next year, and the 8th-house progressed Moon won't be making any significant contacts until its conjunction to MSN in October of this year and conjunction to Mars next July. One of the reasons I put rectified Saturn in the 4th was because of the "end of the matter" connotations of that house (as well as because much of the rest of the chart "clicked," and progressed Sun is in the 4th too). I figured that the impending Saturn return there along with the 8th-house progressed Moon/MSN contact and its subsequent excursion through the Terms of Mars and Saturn between now and next March could be worth paying close attention to. If any of this pans out, it will be another confirmation for what increasingly looks like a valid rectified chart.
Barleywine
I just ran the solar return chart for my father's 87th year with Halloran's Astrology for Windows. The natal chart is from Morinus but agrees with Halloran's version. I will put my comments in an edit after I have a chance to compare them. The first thing I want to look at is whether the natal MC might be adjusted to 4 Aries to place SR Uranus on the angle, if this turns out to be a critical year for him.
Solar Return
Sun 20 Cancer (obviously)
Moon 27 Sagittarius
Mercury 16 Leo
Venus 11 Cancer
Mars 15 Gemini
Jupiter 6 Taurus
Saturn 11 Libra
Uranus 4 Aries
Neptune 0 Pisces
Pluto 5 Capricorn
Ascendant 28 Cancer
MC 12 Aries
Natal (Rectified)
Sun 20 Cancer
Moon 7 Sagittarius
Mercury 29 Cancer
Venus 2 Cancer
Mars 4 Pisces
Jupiter 10 Sagittarius
Saturn 25 Libra
Uranus 21 Pisces
Neptune 19 Leo
Pluto 12 Cancer
Ascendant 26 Cancer
MC 8 Aries
Edit: I backed up the birth time by 18 minutes, which put 4 Aries on the MC. But this moved the Ascendant to 22 Cancer, placing the Sun back into the 5-degree "run-in" to the 1st house, which I'm not sure fits. It does bring the rising degree back to within 1 degree of the Ascendant I got using the Prenatal Epoch. I will have to observe what happens between now and next Spring to see if there are any Uranian-type upsets that substantiate having SR Uranus in partile conjunction to the natal MC.
However . . . this also puts Mars squarely on the 9th house cusp, making it a 9th house Mars. Using the religious analogy, with both Mars and Uranus in Pisces in the 9th and a Cardinal, angular Sun tied in by trine to Uranus, I would think he might be active in the church hierarchy (for example, an "elder" or more likely some lower functionary), but nothing would be more unlike him. His zeal is mainly reflected from his second wife, who has an excess of it. I seem to think the 8th house Mars ties in better with the type of "master-slave" relationship (with him in the subordinate role) he had with his first wife and is emulating with his second one.
Solar Return
Sun 20 Cancer (obviously)
Moon 27 Sagittarius
Mercury 16 Leo
Venus 11 Cancer
Mars 15 Gemini
Jupiter 6 Taurus
Saturn 11 Libra
Uranus 4 Aries
Neptune 0 Pisces
Pluto 5 Capricorn
Ascendant 28 Cancer
MC 12 Aries
Natal (Rectified)
Sun 20 Cancer
Moon 7 Sagittarius
Mercury 29 Cancer
Venus 2 Cancer
Mars 4 Pisces
Jupiter 10 Sagittarius
Saturn 25 Libra
Uranus 21 Pisces
Neptune 19 Leo
Pluto 12 Cancer
Ascendant 26 Cancer
MC 8 Aries
Edit: I backed up the birth time by 18 minutes, which put 4 Aries on the MC. But this moved the Ascendant to 22 Cancer, placing the Sun back into the 5-degree "run-in" to the 1st house, which I'm not sure fits. It does bring the rising degree back to within 1 degree of the Ascendant I got using the Prenatal Epoch. I will have to observe what happens between now and next Spring to see if there are any Uranian-type upsets that substantiate having SR Uranus in partile conjunction to the natal MC.
However . . . this also puts Mars squarely on the 9th house cusp, making it a 9th house Mars. Using the religious analogy, with both Mars and Uranus in Pisces in the 9th and a Cardinal, angular Sun tied in by trine to Uranus, I would think he might be active in the church hierarchy (for example, an "elder" or more likely some lower functionary), but nothing would be more unlike him. His zeal is mainly reflected from his second wife, who has an excess of it. I seem to think the 8th house Mars ties in better with the type of "master-slave" relationship (with him in the subordinate role) he had with his first wife and is emulating with his second one.
Barleywine
On another subject, what is the significance of "partile" aspects (within less than 1 degree of arc and also in the same degree) to the accuracy of prediction? Obviously, the tighter the better, but does anyone not take an aspect (especially an aspect by transit) into account if it isn't partile? In rectification, where small variations can sometimes make big differences, I tend to hold to this when applying event-chart (transiting) aspects to the radical horoscope (although it's not a hard-and-fast rule).
Second topic: the German cosmobiologists (as can be surmised from their use of the 90-degree dial) didn't have much use for the "soft" aspects (trines, sextiles, quintiles and the rest) since they don't often precipitate "events." I'm kind of with them on that.
Opinions?
Second topic: the German cosmobiologists (as can be surmised from their use of the 90-degree dial) didn't have much use for the "soft" aspects (trines, sextiles, quintiles and the rest) since they don't often precipitate "events." I'm kind of with them on that.
Opinions?
Minderwiz
On another subject, what is the significance of "partile" aspects (within less than 1 degree of arc and also in the same degree) to the accuracy of prediction? Obviously, the tighter the better, but does anyone not take an aspect (especially an aspect by transit) into account if it isn't partile? In rectification, where small variations can sometimes make big differences, I tend to hold to this when applying event-chart (transiting) aspects to the radical horoscope (although it's not a hard-and-fast rule).
It depends on your personal system - I tend to go for transits as the bottom level of the system. so assuming that there are other indicators of an event at 'higher' levels, the transit perfection gives the best estimate of the timing of the event. No 'higher' indicators and it's unlikely that a partile or even perfect aspect will indicate an associated event. So for a transit to be seen as important it has to relate to a place or planet of importance for this time period, such as to one of the angles of the Solar Return (or the SR Ascendant or angle rulers), or to the Lord of the Year, or to a planet which is involved in an important primary direction, etc. There are quite a few methods that could be used, and everyone will have their preferred methods but I think the same principle applies, a transit to a point or planet that is not important for now and is not itself being transited by such a planet then it's unlikely to have any significance and I would ignore any partile aspect.
Barleywine said:Second topic: the German cosmobiologists (as can be surmised from their use of the 90-degree dial) didn't have much use for the "soft" aspects (trines, sextiles, quintiles and the rest) since they don't often precipitate "events." I'm kind of with them on that.
Opinions?
In general I'd agree with that, subject to what I said above and also subject to similar orbs. I would treat a partile trine as more important than a wide square but the ranking of aspects has always put oppositions and squares ahead of trines and sextiles.
Minderwiz
However . . . this also puts Mars squarely on the 9th house cusp, making it a 9th house Mars. Using the religious analogy, with both Mars and Uranus in Pisces in the 9th and a Cardinal, angular Sun tied in by trine to Uranus, I would think he might be active in the church hierarchy (for example, an "elder" or more likely some lower functionary), but nothing would be more unlike him. His zeal is mainly reflected from his second wife, who has an excess of it. I seem to think the 8th house Mars ties in better with the type of "master-slave" relationship (with him in the subordinate role) he had with his first wife and is emulating with his second one.
Oddly, Lilly says of the ninth
'I have oft observed when the dragon's tail or Mars or Saturn have been unfortunately placed in this house, the querent hath either been little better than an atheist or a desperate sectarist'
Now he's referring to a horary chart rather than a natal chart but the same could well apply, Mars may well indicate an active dislike of religion here, just as much as a fierce devotion. Mars in Pisces would not, however be unfortunate, as Lilly treat it as the Water triplicity ruler by both day and night. So it would have to have some other misfortune - retrograde, combust, in a tight square, conjunction or opposition to Saturn, etc.
That may or may not apply of course, but you could also look to see if there's any other ninth association that is quite strong and active - travel, education and learning or the law are the obvious ones.
Barleywine
That may or may not apply of course, but you could also look to see if there's any other ninth association that is quite strong and active - travel, education and learning or the law are the obvious ones.
I had already done that and none of it has much relevance unless long-distance truck driving is "travel." But it was more occupational or career-focused and not at all elevating or educational that I could see. He has only a 10th-grade education and the closest he got to the law was reading the old-time "men's action" magazines with police stories in them. Going as far back as his interest in Eric von Danniken, he has had a strong fixation on off-beat metaphysical views (you may recall that von Danniken proposed that the spaceships of "ancient astronauts" were the archetype for church steeples). Even though he is involved in a Christian church, it has decidedly non-mainstream tenets. He regularly took us to that church when we were kids over 50 years ago but my mother soon harassed him out of it; he went back right after she died. So I'm pretty sure religion is where this particular 9th-house emphasis goes.
Mars being posited in a favorable triplicity in the 9th would seem to make it a stimulant for these pursuits rather than a disruptor, unless the bad reputation Pisces has for corruptibility taints it. It is in trine to the 12th-house Venus and the aspect is not too far off from the mid-point of Venus and Pluto in Cancer, but I like that better with the 8th house position than with the 9th. Ebertin again: "A strong sensual nature, the desire for many children" (as I mentioned before, nine of us).
The dominant event in his life was for many years his involvement in WW II, when he flew 26 bombing missions out England near the end of the war, helping demolish his father's homeland. It just dawned on me that I should look at house emphasis for outer-planet transits, secondary progressions and solar-return contacts for 1944 and 1945. He didn't have any dramatic events I can pin anything more precise on, but the background "vibration" should be discernible.
