Midpoints, Planets in Containment

dadsnook2000

Confusion is not necessary

Hi Lunalafey. At this point I've combined mid-points and planets in containment for two simple reasons. First, the book for PIC contains very robust descriptions of each planetary pattern. These are far more extensive than what is in Ebertin's CSI. They can be simply adjusted for use in interpreting mid-points. Second, planets in containment are very easy to use; there is no math involved, no lists to sort through. My feeling is that more people ought to give them consideration due to their accuracy and easy use.
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For awhile, I'll label each posting or section of a posting as MID-POINT or CONTAINMENT to more clearly seperate the topics.
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As for folding the chart -- I can see how that might be confusing. Let me start over. Every circle, and your basic horoscope chart, has 360 degrees. Lets pretend that you erase all numbers that depict the degree points from a chart, leaving just the one degree tick marks. Now, start at one point and label it Zero. Go four tick marks (these were "degrees" on the 360 chart) and mark that point One. Go another four tick marks and mark that point Two. Continue in that manner and when you get back to the starting point you will be at Ninety. This means that zero Aries, zero Cancer, zero Libra and zero Capricorn all reside at the same point. Note that each tick mark in the 90 degree chart now represents 1/4 of a degree or 15 minutes of arc. This makes it easy to enter two or more planets that are near the same degree point.
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I'm sure you can find examples of mid-point usage and the 90 degree chart in many places -- almost any astrological software program, books by Noel Tyl (USA), books that cover Uranian astrology (which includes 8 hypothetical planets beyond pluto), the several books by Ebertin (CSI, Applied Cosmobiology, The Annual Diagram [this is complex]), most books that cover Solar Arcs and various magazine issues. Today, almost everyone uses mid-points as part of their tool-set. I'll try to keep future replies simple and seperated (relative to mid-points and containments). Dave.
 

dadsnook2000

littleneptune asks . . .

Hello littleneptune. Containments are easy to learn as there is no calculations to do. If you have a computer program that generates mid-points, then there is no calculation to do. They are both easy to learn. There is only one interpretive difference.
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MID-POINT: Mercury/Saturn = Sun is the same as Saturn/Mercury = Sun. This is because mid-points are generally interpreted as if an actual conjunction, square and opposition were the same, and as if the 45 and 135 degree aspects to the mid-point were oppositions. This is a carry-over from the early and mid 1900's when there were no computers and a 90-degree chart was used. So, you could say that a structured (Saturn) statement (Mercury) would reflect the speakers identity and life style (Sun) -- or use any other keywords to start your interpretation.
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CONTAINMENT: Mercury-Sun-Saturn in a containment pattern is not the same as Saturn-Sun-Mercury. (this was covered in a previous post). The first planet forms a foundation meaning which is expressed by the middle planet such that it evolves or leads to the third planet. The reason I included and suggest the parallel use of containments is that the book, Planets in Containment, can be used with mid-points (with minor mental adjustments) and offers a richer reference text base for those learning either/both mid-points and containments. Ebertin's book is good but it is 1) briefly stated, and 2) conditioned by the level of sensitivity of the early 1900's and influences of two world wars and their harsh impact on peoples lives and attitudes. Why not consider a more modern work? BUT, EITHER BOOK WORKS and EITHER METHODOLOGY IS SIMPLE TO USE AND REWARDING. If you learn one, you almost learn both. Dave.
 

dadsnook2000

Carter's chart

Jimmy Carter's chart and biography can be found on Lois Rodden's website, www.astroldatabank.com. Carter's birth data is as follows: Oct. 1, 1924 at 7:00 am CST, Plains, GA USA, at longitude 84W23, latitude 32N20. This yields an MC at 28-Cancer-29 and a ASC at 26-Libra-03. Sun is at 8-Libra-04, Moon at 13-Scorpio-48, Mercury at 21-Virgo-11, Venus at 23-Leo-20, Mars at 25-Aq-51, Jupiter at 14-Sag-26, Saturn at 1-Scorpio-55, Uranus at 18-Pisces-47 Rx, Neptune at 21-Leo-47, Pluto at 13-Cancer-31, N. Node at 20-Leo-29, Chiron at 23-Aries-01.
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MID-POINT: In a previous post I noted how the dark days of the early and mid 1900's shaped Witte's and Ebertin's interpretations developed from working with clients who lived during those times. An example of their developed views can be had by looking at a couple of the mid-points that Saturn occupies.
1) Saturn = Pluto/Node: Lack of adaptability, fighting against oppression, etc. Seeking contacts with many people -- the wish to become a public figure, etc.
2) Saturn = Neptune/Pluto: Dark forbodings, pessimism, etc. An intensified and purified soul-life, a high degree of sensitivity, etc.
Now, there is more to Saturn and to Jimmy Carter than just these views. I offer them so that we can compare a more modern view of Saturn as noted in Planets in Containment.
CONTAINMET: Sun-Saturn-Moon. The potential mastery of these people lies in the ability for organizing the affairs of their existence in an immediately practical and workable way. In this lifetime they are learning to deal with the blockages and frustrations inherent in life on a day-to-day basis. Etc.
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This latter view of Saturn's role is more robust, would be far more helpful to both the client and astrologer. This is not to put down the use of mid-points. Saturn forms FIVE important mid-points. I am sure that each of these five patterns plays an important role in understanding the deeper Jimmy Carter. He has probably had to wrestle with these traits and to shape his way of dealing with them -- turning challenges into strengths. So take your pick. My personal rule is, if you have options take them all. Dave.
 

littleneptune

dadsnook2000--I absolutely agree that a modern text is more relevant, as long as it is as accurate as the older version. I guess I just found that when you were analyzing my chart, the midpoints made more sense and were more specific. The containments seemed somewhat vague (this is why I always test methods on myself first, who knows what the 'dark side' of Jimmy Carter is that we don't know about!). But hey, that's just me. As we progress I'm sure I'll see the value of containments better. I also agree that learning all the options is the best way to go, then one can make an educated choice. And I can see how more 'robust' descriptions would be better than skimpy ones.

P.S. I couldn't get to Mr.Carter's chart using Lois Rodden's link. I'll cast a chart using the birth data you provided, or just hand write it since you supplied all the info. Thanks.
 

dadsnook2000

A quick note

littleneptune, although I have not seen it there has been talk of a book entitled "Midpoints" by Michael Mulcusky (?). I'm not sure of the spelling. It is supposed to be modern and updated. At the end of last year I threw away about 200+ astrology books, some of them only a few months old, just to make room for other stuff. Included were books by Evangiline Adams (early 19th century) who popularized astrology in the US, a series of education texts and topical texts by Noel Tyl, etc. I found I had not looked at them in 10 years so I figured I didn't need them. Besides, I was focusing on Tarot and needed room for a growing library plus a project that I expect to bring to market this fall. Ebertin's mid-point interpretations are often stunning. They are short and concise. They also reflect the harsher aspect of his client's lives that formed the basis for his work. If you can only afford one book, look for the newer mid-points book, if you can afford more then consider either CSI or PIC. I would avoid the many books of Uranian astrology -- they also use mid-points but include several unique methodologies and eight hypothetical planets beyond Pluto. Strangely, they seem to work but who needs the complexity to start with. Dave.
 

lunalafey

Re: A quick note

dadsnook2000 said:
At the end of last year I threw away about 200+ astrology books, some of them only a few months old, just to make room for other stuff. Included were books by Evangiline Adams

the next time you decide to throw away any astrology books(especially Evangeline Adams)....give me notice so I can wait oout by your trash can.

...I'm working on drawing up a folded version of my chart, gotta go....
 

dadsnook2000

Good for you!

Good for you Lunalafey. I'm sure you'll find some interesting mid-point structures. Sometimes we feel that we express a certain planet strongly or in a significant way, or just under certain circumstances -- but can't find a pattern in a regular chart that seems to explain that. You may find that mid-points in the 90 degree chart can clarify such a situation. I've found a lot of stuff, not to confuse the issue, in my fifth and seventh harmonic charts (72 degrees folded or 51.etc. degrees folded [which is tough to do]) charts. But the 90 degree chart is highly helpful in showing how we act, react and deal with events. Dave.
 

Minderwiz

Re: A quick note

dadsnook2000 said:
although I have not seen it there has been talk of a book entitled "Midpoints" by Michael Mulcusky (?). I'm not sure of the spelling. It is supposed to be modern and updated. Dave.

Its actually Michael Munkasey and the title is 'Midpoints: Unleashing The Power Of The Planets' I know it was first published in 1991 and I think we referred to it earlier in the thread. Unfortunately Amazon UK list this title as being out of print - Amazon US has a CD Rom version for $32.

I've got the Sandbach and Ballard book through and will start dipping into it - it certainly looks very interesting.
 

littleneptune

Hi dadsnook. I've tried to "fold my chart" and what I've got now is three groups of signs--1. all the cardinals, 2. all the fixed, and 3. all the mutables, with my various planets under these categories. How does this folding of the chart relate to midpoint structures? What should I do now?
 

lunalafey

with out a visual example, I could not say for sure if I got this right.
what I have is a 1/4 pie slice of a total 90d. from 0-90 the planets are as follows
6-saturn
9-sun
11-merc
24-moon
53-mars
55-nep
29-ven
65-jup
82-plu
89-ura

does this sound right?