Tarot, number four, and some random thoughts on the Kabala

ha...

well some say there are actually 12 kabbalistic spheres (shhh its a secret....lol)..... and 3*4 = 12...!!!!! dum ta dum.....

4 being found within the tarot is hardly suprising though...as western magic(k)/mysticism (whatever word you choose to use here...) centers around 4..... which I dont think I need to allude to.....

There is also a danger in saying the Marseilles tarot is the "complete original"...as any kabbalist should know .."nothing exists in isolation"....

personally all this numerology is a bit silly....I prefer a blance of Orphic energy as well as Hermetic..heh.....but I know how people cling to their Hod energy....

doesnt Gareth Knight explore this very idea in one of his tarot books????

"tomorrow I'll be burnt as a witch for playing punk rock" --carter the unstoppable sex machine

smleite, in your opening post, you do indeed refer to 'card XXII', but also say of it that 'XXII - as Le Mat is generally referred to'.

Should the second instance of 'XXII' in the opening post be taken to have been 'XXI'?

With regards to 'some saying that there are' twelve spheres, it may indeed be the case that 'some say so', but whoever these are are certainly not being consistent with Kabalistic revelation: 'there are ten and not nine, ten and not eleven', as is stated in the opening of the Sefer Yetzirah.

Nothing, indeed, exists in isolation, but there is rather a deep spiritual connection that exists within the spiritual hierarchies and the various manifestations and creations.

Personally, I do not consider the Marseille as the 'complete original', and have mentioned the same in various posts that refer to the Ür-Tarot, but do, however, consider it the clearest reflection of the same.

smleite said:

Card number XXII is to me a vivid picture of the characteristics of Kether: Kether is the uppermost aspect of the Sefirot that can be contemplated by humans. It means the birth of a new system, a new sequence, a new world, or the refreshment of an old world or system. The angels of Kether are the Holy Living Creatures, the four Seraphim, and also the four elements or the four fixed signs: Bull (Taurus), lion (Leo), eagle (Scorpio), man (Aquarius). In Kether, God is actively creating our universe. Regarded as a level of consciousness, Kether represents union with God, the Completion of the Great Work, the end and aim of any mystical experience.

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Here is where I made a mistake, jmd, not when referring to The Fool. Thank you for noticing it, my former post could be confusing.

Silvia

Possibly because I personally place the paired cards within the Sefirot, with the Fou and XXI within Keter, I had not read your post in the manner you had intended, but rather as taking the Fou (as your description of the card as twenty-second) and the description of Keter's Seraphim inclusion as represented by the four living creatures as simply adding to the Fou + XXI association therein.

A very useful extension to the discussion indeed.

jmd said:

With regards to 'some saying that there are' twelve spheres, it may indeed be the case that 'some say so', but whoever these are are certainly not being consistent with Kabalistic revelation: 'there are ten and not nine, ten and not eleven', as is stated in the opening of the Sefer Yetzirah.

Nothing, indeed, exists in isolation, but there is rather a deep spiritual connection that exists within the spiritual hierarchies and the various manifestations and creations.

Personally, I do not consider the Marseille as the 'complete original', and have mentioned the same in various posts that refer to the Ür-Tarot, but do, however, consider it the clearest reflection of the same.

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I bow to your knowledge on the Marseiles tarot...but the 12th century merlin texts show at least that the images were arond earlier(images NOT cards)....

As regards the 12 not 10....well...lets say some heresy here...some which I know people will NOT agree with.... Kabblah was never Judaic........the tree of life is far older than the jews....Jewish kabbalah is traditonally blinded (oppps this means the GD version is too....)......if one actually looks at the rider waite deck check out the lovers card....it clearly doenst have 10 fruits,,,lol.......(shhhh its a secret).......

As someone who has posted numerous images from Mediaeval Cathedrals of images similar to Tarot's, and that has likewise made references to texts dating from ancient Greece, and also shown similarities with images from earlier ancient cultures (as, for example, in issue 11 of the ATS Newsletter), I personally agree that many of the images occur prior to the first appearance of Tarot cards.

Also, there have been some discussions, such as in Greek Kabbalah, that even the Sefer Yetzirah may have ultimately borrowed from Greek learning.

With regards to the WCS Lovers card, it perhaps should be pointed out that the depiction is not of the Tree of Life, but rather of the Tree of Knowledge. Distinct, really - or at least distinct as described in Genesis, for whereas from one sustenance was to be partaken, from the other not.

hoomer said:

...the tree of life is far older than the jews...

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I certainly hope so.

Silvia

jmd said:

With regards to the WCS Lovers card, it perhaps should be pointed out that the depiction is not of the Tree of Life, but rather of the Tree of Knowledge. Distinct, really - or at least distinct as described in Genesis, for whereas from one sustenance was to be partaken, from the other not.

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right...
the tree of knowledge....

the tree of good and evil.....

macro and microcosms.......the 2 trees.....

most only explore the good and evil one......

am pleased to find knowegable thinkers here though.....smiles....as oppesed to "Kabbalah is jewish" and nothing else.....and came only from the jews originally..so there.....

etc.....

spiritus domini replevit orbem terrarum

I'm surprised that others haven't taken me to task on my comment that on the 'WCS Lovers card, it perhaps should be pointed out that the depiction is not of the Tree of Life' - given that so many have claimed that one Tree (behind the feminine figure) is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the other (behind the masculine figure) is supposed to be the Tree of Life - and I too have at times made that comment to others (perhaps even here on these boards over the past few years).

With regards to the comment about Kabalah and whether or not it is Jewish, not only, of course, is the term certainly Jewish, but its essential characteristics arise through the Jewish spiritual athanor.

Of course, as a consequence, it is certainly the case that the Tree of Life antidates any human being - as also hinted at wonderfully by smleite

jmd said:

I'm surprised that others haven't taken me to task on my comment that on the 'WCS Lovers card, it perhaps should be pointed out that the depiction is not of the Tree of Life' - given that so many have claimed that one Tree (behind the feminine figure) is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the other (behind the masculine figure) is supposed to be the Tree of Life - and I too have at times made that comment to others (perhaps even here on these boards over the past few years).

With regards to the comment about Kabalah and whether or not it is Jewish, not only, of course, is the term certainly Jewish, but its essential characteristics arise through the Jewish spiritual athanor.

Of course, as a consequence, it is certainly the case that the Tree of Life antidates any human being - as also hinted at wonderfully by smleite

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what is the WCS lovers card please????

of course the term is jewish....but as you say...

so cause the sefer yetzirah says there are 10 spheres there are then? ha.....whatever happend to not taking a mystical text at face value?...lol.....