How many original copies of the 1760 TdM Conver are there in existence?

Rusty Neon

I took a look at the card scans at Mark Filipas' review of the Lyle deck and also checked out my Marteau/Grimaud images. It looks like the Lyle deck is a photoreproduction of the Camoin Bicentennial but that Lyle has altered the colours. Based on the cards shown in the Filipas review and at Filipas' comparison page, the cards of the Lyle deck have colouring similar overall to the Marteau/Grimaud deck's colouring yet with differences in details. For example, in the case of the World card's human figure in the top, left hand corner of the card, the figure has a red and blue vestment in the Lyle deck while the figure has a white and blue vestment in the Marteau/Grimaud deck.
 

Ross G Caldwell

Re: Camoin Bicentennial?

Mari_Hoshizaki said:
I don't know if I'm confused or this is right:

Jane Lyle's set compared to the Bicentennial:

http://www.tarotpassages.com/TarotSet-mf.htm

Our thread discussing Jane Lyle's set with link to above review.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16259&highlight=camoin+bicentennial

You'll notice that Filpas has nicely compared the two of Pentacles with 1760 date.

Hope this helps

Mari H.
Click to expand...

Thanks for those links Mari. I would love to have the Bicentennial, but I haven't found it yet. Why haven't I ordered one? Probably hoping to find one in a shop, like I did with the Vanderborre and the Besançon reproductions.

According to Depaulis' discussion of the Conver in the Bibliothèque nationale ("Tarot: jeu et magie" (1984), cat. 41, pp. 72-73), he notes the cards' dimensions as 120mm x 64mm. I'm taking that to mean the physical edge of the card, not the image border.

The Héron is clearly smaller than the original.

The Lo Scarabeo is 120mm x 66mm, so they've widened it a little. Comparining with those in Mark's review

http://www.tarotpassages.com/TarotSet-mf.htm

I see that the others are exactly the same size, when Thunder Bay Presses huge extra frame is taken away.

So many pros and cons!

Héron - complete, authentic coloured, but smaller than actual size and heavily laminated, and the green is so dark it looks black.

Lo Scarabeo - real size, beautiful colouring, but incomplete (alas!). Also, not exactly a facsimile, since it too is sligtly laminated.

Bicentennial - real size, but wrong colours. On the other hand, it is exactly the kind of deck you would have played around 1860 - no lamination, square cut edges (maybe some makers rounded them, I don't know for sure).

Thunder Bay Press - real size, but those huge margin/frames take you away from the cards, and it must be laminated heavily.

Ross
 

felicityk

Thanks for the information, everyone. I may get the Thunder Bay Press version since it is so inexpensive. It does look like the Bicentennial is still available through the Camoin website, though. Does anyone here have experience ordering directly from them?

Felicity
 

filipas

Rusty Neon wrote:
I took a look at the card scans at Mark Filipas' review of the Lyle deck and also checked out my Marteau/Grimaud images. It looks like the Lyle deck is a photoreproduction of the Camoin Bicentennial but that Lyle has altered the colours.
Click to expand...
Hi Rusty,
In my opinion, Thunder Bay Press did not alter any of the colors in spite of slight differences between it and the Bicentennial (such as in the blue of the 2 of Coins ribbon and in the pink of the Moon's dogs). What I think we are seeing in these slight differences is a result of original cards having been photographed, the new images being "one generation removed". The photographic process never records with total accuracy. Plus, the cost of paying anyone for color retouching seems to me beyond the budget or intentions which an edition such as this would have had! Just my two cents.

Thanks,
- Mark
 

filipas

Ross wrote:

So many pros and cons!

Héron - complete, authentic coloured, but smaller than actual size and heavily laminated, and the green is so dark it looks black.
Click to expand...
Yes, the green is dark to the point of being black. My biggest disappointment about the Heron (although I do love this edition) is that it's woodcut lines are just too light, thereby keeping the iconography (the most important element!) from being as legible as it might have been.

Ross wrote:

Lo Scarabeo - real size, beautiful colouring, but incomplete (alas!). Also, not exactly a facsimile, since it too is sligtly laminated.
Click to expand...
I have this deck, but in what way is it incomplete? My biggest complaint about it is that a beige tone has been artificially added to the backgrounds, which diminishes the contrast of the original images it reproduces. I also find the coloring of this edition way too harsh, but that is not Lo Scarabeo's fault, it is the fault of the original's stenciler.

Ross wrote:

Bicentennial - real size, but wrong colours. On the other hand, it is exactly the kind of deck you would have played around 1860 - no lamination, square cut edges (maybe some makers rounded them, I don't know for sure).


Thunder Bay Press - real size, but those huge margin/frames take you away from the cards, and it must be laminated heavily.
Click to expand...
The cards aren't really laminated, but they do have a coat of varnish applied. They are actually thinner and more pliable than the cards of these other editions. The Bicentannial is certainly nice because it is unlaminated and because it was printed directly from the original woodblocks but the Thunder Bay Press edition is virtually identical visually and is easier to shuffle!

Thanks,
- Mark
 

Ross G Caldwell

Hi Mark -

filipas said:
I have this deck, but in what way is it incomplete?
Click to expand...

The six of batons is missing, and Lo Scarabeo took used the seven to make it up - they took out the middle baton.

Ross
 

Flornoy

Bonjour à tous,

Il existe une édition du Conver, circa 1830, en couleurs imprimées, différentes de l'édition originale, dont un excellent exemplaire est conservé au musée Héraclio Fournier à Victoria-Gatez en Pays basque du sud.

Il s'est vendu récemment un exemplaire complet à 1200 €.

amitiés,
JC Flornoy
 

jmd

Thankyou for this added reference.

Are you or anyone else ware whether the Spanish based Basque Fournier Museum copy of the circa 1830s version of the Conver been scanned of in other ways been made available in either scanned or printed form?

It would again be worth noting the variations!
 
4 suites arrangement(coins, wands,swords, cups? King here, Queen there