Anonymous parisian tarot - a new interpretation

Huck

hi Philippe,

Kwaw told me about this thread.

Recently jtdemers was asking in another thread which sense could be given to the minors of this mysterious deck and was referring to a thread on forum.tarothistory.com discussing the heraldry on the pentacles cards.

All the members seemed to take for granted the arguments advanced by a certain M. Popoff in the well known M. Depaulis' booklet "Tarot, jeu et magie" from 1985. I disagree with several of his assignments hence this thread.

I wasn't totally confessed by Popoff's analyses, but at least it was then (2012) an existent opinion without any other opinion to the coin suit of Tarot des Paris.
And I don't claim to understand French heraldry very much, so I had not much interest to doubt Popoff's identification.

For my dating of 1559 for the Tarot des Paris only 3 cards were really relevant.

1. The 2 of coins, which Popoff identified as containing Strozzi and Gonzaga heraldry
2. The 9 of coins, which contained at one coin a sign of Diane de Poitiers
3. The 10 of coins, which contained at one coin a sign with an "H", which Popoff recognized as related to King Henry II

I could recognize the 3 crescents on the card as belonging to Strozzi then, but I couldn't identify, how Popoff came to the conclusion, that the other sign should relate to Gonzaga.
The 3 Strozzi crescents are usually arranged horizontally, on the card the crescents decrease in height from left to right.
The person, that you suggest, has the crescent also decreasing in height from left to right and that's closer to the card motif. That seems better, but ...

the card
coins-ace-2.jpg


Antoine II de Viste
33442373875_7d6247b4bf.jpg


Strozzi (usual)
2f6030f5f5a76b0c711f573f257f9ddf.JPG


Strozzi (usual)
35.jpg


Strozzi (variant) ... or simply "too modern" ???
g_300.png

http://www.poggiugo.it/shop/en/prodotto.php?id=300
... a commercial website ...

So that's an open question. Generally I saw a lot of French heraldry with 3 crescents, but I noticed not, that one decreased in height from left to right.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:3_crescents_in_heraldry

I found no connection of Antoine II de Viste to playing card documents. For the Strozzi and the Gonzaga this is given, however, and that counts something in my considerations.

You seem to suspect, that the "Gonzaga sign" relates to Emperor Charles V.

This remembers me on an older playing card document ...

x04.jpg

https://archive.org/stream/collectiondesor12fragoog#page/n313/mode/2up/search/juan

... I found that a longer time ago, but nobody reacted on it.

Now I find the following work (written 2015) ...

x03.jpg


x02.jpg

from https://issuu.com/conjuringarts/docs/sample_of_gibeciere_vol_10_no_1

... as it seems, that's perhaps in our interests not of relevance.

**************

Chiffre for Diane de Poitiers (9 of coins)

popoff-d.jpg


popoff-dd.jpg

http://www.apmep.fr/IMG/pdf/annexe5.pdf

Chiffre for Henry II. (10 of coins)

popoff-h.jpg


Mono.henriII.JPG

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogramme

popoff-hh.jpg


Henry II played with the letter H and a double DD for Diane. Diane (as the goddess Diana) had 3 crescents, cause the goddess Diane was a bow-shooter.

Strange enough, this created some nearness to the 3 crescents in the Strozzi heraldry.

************

I've difficulties to take Diane of VERY high importance before 1447 (death of Francois I) ... so from this the suspicion, that the deck was not made before 1447.
Louis Gonzaga was quite young in 1447 (and not in France) in 1447. Considering his age and the overall political situation it seems plausible to assume 1559, cause Diane de Poitiers lost her importance in 1559 with the dearth of Henry II.

Anyway, I'm happy, that this fixed and not really sensitive "Tarot de Paris c. 1600" found some general criticism.
 

kwaw

Examples of three crescents in heraldry (including several intertwined as in Diana's, and other Diagonal, as Strozzi, Viste) :

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:3_crescents_argent_in_heraldry

The following for example are blazons for different families/places (from above link) :

109px-Blason_de_la_famille_de_Jourda_de_Vaux_de_Foletier.svg.png


109px-Blason_de_Cr%C3%A9cy-la-Chapelle_%28Seine-et-Marne%29.svg.png


108px-Blason_Lun%C3%A9ville.png


D'azur à trois croissants entrelacés d'argent.
Détails According to legend given to Crécy by catherine de Médicis (wife of Henri II)
109px-Blason_CrecylaChap.svg.png

109px-Blason_ville_fr_Cr%C3%A9cy-la-Chapelle_%28Seine-et-Marne%29.svg.png

109px-Blason_ville_fr_Saint-Ouen-la-Rou%C3%ABrie_%28Ille-et-Vilaine%29.svg.png

82px-Blason_ville_fr_Rocroi01_%28Ardennes%29.svg.png

109px-Blason_ville_fr_Rocroi_%28Ardennes%29.svg.png
 

Huck

Thanks for the pictures, somehow I missed to look through this list.

bernini07.jpg

Said to mean Strozzi-family ... https://justinehouyaux.com/tag/bernini/

Yes, it's strange, that the sign for Diane de Poitiers is so similar to the 3 moons of the Strozzi.

Catharina de' Medici, later wife of Henry II., was educated by her aunt Clarice Strozzi (born as Medici), after both parents, father and mother, had died short after her birth (1519). Clarice's husband, Filippo Strozzi the Younger, had played Germini with Catherina's father (1517 and 1519). He was a banker. Another Medici was pope then, another Medici became ound pope in 1523. There were rather royal conditions around Catherine, but she grew up as a member of a big family with many (10) children.

Piero Strozzi (about 1510 - 21 June 1558), condottiero and Marshal of France
Roberto Strozzi (died 1566), married Maddalena di Pierfrancesco de' Medici (Florence, c. 1523 - Rome, 14 April 1583), daughter of Pierfrancesco II de' Medici
Maria Strozzi, married Lorenzo Ridolfi
Leone Strozzi (15 October 1515 - 28 June 1554), condottiero and Knight of Malta
Giulio Strozzi (died 1537)
Vincenzo Strozzi (died Rome, c. 1537)
Alessandro Strozzi (died 1541)
Luigia Strozzi (died 1534), married Senator Luigi Capponi (patrician of Florence)
Maddalena Strozzi, married Count Flaminio dell'Anguillara
Lorenzo Strozzi (3 December 1513 - 14 December 1571), abbot and Cardinal

When the Strozzi got big difficulties in Florence 1527, two of the brothers (Piero and Leone) escaped to France and there they became important in the French army in the role of guests of Catharina de Medici, naturally integrated in the French nobility life.
Well, finally the court was dominated by Diane de Portiers and so it seems naturally, that the Strozzi attempted to honor her. Or Henry and Diane found it a good idea to honor them.
The Crescent symbol was prominent in France anyway, cause there were 2 knight orders from the Anjou side with crescent symbols, the latter from Rene d'Anjou (1449) . Perhaps the reason, why we see so much crescent heraldry for French families.

x0096.jpg


It was even attempted to establish the crescent as suit sign symbol (Francois Clerc, between 1485-96 in Lyon), instead (?) of carreaux.

3532.jpg
 

Huck

Philippe,

The hypothesis to "Tarot de Paris, 1559", initiated by 2 young Italians in French service for the peace festivities of Henry II is a plausible idea, but needs to be tested by alternative interpretations. One never knows all and everything, and especially for French details in research there are not the best conditions on my side. My French is far from perfect, and I personally can have serious misinterpretations in reading it, not to speak of my problems, if I would attempt to write in it.
I personally think, that in the course of time the Gonzaga family in Nevers was very important for the distribution of Tarot in France.
I think, that the major Tarot development took place, after Louis Gonzaga accompanied Catherina's son Henry III from Poland through Italy in 1574.
Ferrara had been then a major place for Tarocchi production in Italy, but was seriously devastated by a long series of earthquakes for a longer period. Henry III visited the city during this journey. In the follow-up Henry III was very interested in Italian customs and general culture.
This fashion of Henry likely promoted an increase of French Tarocchi documents in France for a longer period till the time, when Louis XIII took the reign after 1615 and took then a stand against Italian influence on the French court.

I once took a longer attempt to sort the known French documents of the connected times 1500-1700. It's not perfect, of course. And it's a longer time ago. But it is a good project.

You'll find it with the search keys "Collection French Tarot dates 1500-1700" "Huck"
 

Huck

btw.

The Strozzi had their 3 crescents from their original place Fiesole. The city coat of arms nowadays has this form ...

350px-Fiesole1.jpg
 

Zephyros

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