More curiosity...

Aeon418

A bit of colour might help explain. Although it might mess with some people's eyesight. :laugh:
For the sake of ease and convenience only the four affected cards are shown.

Colour key: In order. Out of order.

Hebrew alphabet order:

XVII - Heh - Aquarius

XI - Teth - Leo

VIII - Lamed - Libra

IV - Tzaddi - Aries

Tarot numeral order:

IV - Tzaddi - Aries

VIII - Lamed - Libra

XI - Teth - Leo

XVII - Heh - Aquarius

In the first sequence all of the Hebrew letters are in order. All of the Tarot numerals are out of order. And the zodiac signs are split. Leo and Libra are fine, but Aries and Aquarius are counterchanged.

The second sequence is the exact opposite. All the Tarot cards are in order. All of the Hebrew letters are out of order. Once again the zodiac is split. This time Aries and Aquarius are fine. But Leo and Libra are counterchanged.

The questions is: Does this dual arrangement represent the balance and symmetry that Aleister intended?
 

Zephyros

The questions is: Does this dual arrangement represent the balance and symmetry that Aleister intended?

I think it does. At the time when I was (actively) trying to come to grips with it I did something along the lines you did above. I found that the GD ordering was in fact neat, ordered and satisfying. It did in fact do everything it was supposed to and at face value.

On the other hand Crowley's is far more sophisticated, and has an order that is just as satisfying but only when looked at from the proper point of view, chewed and digested. Instead of having a balance that is right there on the Tree for everyone to see, it has at type of "extra-arborial" "greater" balance.

I like it viscerally, I find it quite exciting, not that that is any authority.
 

Aeon418

Instead of having a balance that is right there on the Tree for everyone to see, it has at type of "extra-arborial" "greater" balance.
Maybe Crowley was hinting at something along these lines in his commentary on AL I:57.
Aleister Crowley said:
I see no harm in revealing the mystery of Tzaddi to "the wise"; others will hardly understand my explanations.
Could the word 'understand' indicate the holistic perspective of Binah? Below the Abyss we can only see two separate linear sequences that don't match. And each one twists the zodiac at one end or the other, but not both at the same time. But above the Abyss...
5th Aethyr: LIT said:
And this is the great Mystery of the Supernals that are beyond the Abyss. For below the Abyss, contradiction is division; but above the Abyss, contradiction is Unity. And there could be nothing true except by virtue of the contradiction that is contained in itself.
 

Zephyros

Possibly. Ultimately I found I could only somewhat wrap my head around it when I treated both paths as both the Emperor as well as the Star and analyzed them that way. It also goes to the prevalence of Nuit in the grand scheme of things. She's at the Star but also at Binah as well as in Lust (in another form) in addition to being outside the Tree as the Ain. The entire Tree is thus Hadit, swimming inside the three negative veils that are, again, in themselves Nuit. Of course the Tree is also a form of Babalon, so there is an interesting duality of sex going on.

That's why I see the Star hinting at the idea of a multiverse. The interplay of Nuit and Hadit is still the same, only somewhat larger than just one Tree.
 

Aeon418

In a way the dual arrangement answers the question about the importance of each of the two main sequencing methods. The natural Tarot sequence and the order of the Hebrew alphabet are both valid and correct in their own right. But each one contains an astrological loop that can only be balanced by a similar but opposite loop generated by the other sequence. That's pretty neat when you think about it.
 

Michael Sternbach

Maybe one of you who has thought about this double loop thing more than me can help me to get it straight. :) Please bear with me and try to carry on where I leave off.

So we switch Libra/Lamed/Adjustment with Leo/Theth/Lust via a zodiacal loop using Virgo/Yod/The Hermit as the pivot. Thus, "optically", we end up with Leo/Theth/Lust - Virgo/Yod/Hermit - Libra/Lamed/Adjustment which is correct as far as the order of the signs and the letters while we account for the numerical order of the Trumps (Adjustment being in fact earlier than Lust) by following the loop. Cool.

Now, right opposite on the zodiac, we create a second loop to get in order... um, what, exactly?
 

Owl Tarot

In a way the dual arrangement answers the question about the importance of each of the two main sequencing methods. The natural Tarot sequence and the order of the Hebrew alphabet are both valid and correct in their own right. But each one contains an astrological loop that can only be balanced by a similar but opposite loop generated by the other sequence. That's pretty neat when you think about it.

I actually find what Crowley did pretty logical from the Zodiac point of view. GD swaped Lust and Adjustment on the Zodiac, which resulted in forming a loop in the one end of the Zodiac. When I see the Zodiac under this arrangement, something doesn't feel correct to me. It is like a poorly written 8 figure. Crowley went forward to swap around -in an exact manner- the other end of the Zodiac which formed a small Caduceus on the Zodiac, a DNA like pattern, which feels far more correct as a shape to me. It is a more balanced figure indeedy!

Book of Thoth said:
For “The Star” is referred to Aquarius in the Zodiac, and “The Emperor’ to Aries. Now Aries and Aquarius are on each side of Pisces, just as Leo and Libra are on each side of Virgo; that is to say, the correction in the Book of the Law gives a perfect symmetry in the zodiacal attribution, just as if a loop were formed at one end of the ellipse to correspond exactly with the existing loop at the other end. These matters sound rather technical; in fact, they are; but the more one studies the Tarot, the more one perceives the admirable symmetry and perfection of the symbolism. Yet, even to the layman, it ought to be evident that balance and fitness are essential to any perfection, and the elucidation of these two tangles in the last 150 years is undoubtedly a very remarkable phenomenon.
 

Zephyros

Maybe one of you who has thought about this double loop thing more than me can help me to get it straight. :) Please bear with me and try to carry on where I leave off.

So we switch Libra/Lamed/Adjustment with Leo/Theth/Lust via a zodiacal loop using Virgo/Yod/The Hermit as the pivot. Thus, "optically", we end up with Leo/Theth/Lust - Virgo/Yod/Hermit - Libra/Lamed/Adjustment which is correct as far as the order of the signs and the letters while we account for the numerical order of the Trumps (Adjustment being in fact earlier than Lust) by following the loop. Cool.

Now, right opposite on the zodiac, we create a second loop to get in order... um, what, exactly?

I remember you saying once that you were an astrologer? Here's an explanation that helped me understand what was done (but not the why)

http://www.cornelius93.com/EpistleonZodiacBelt.html

(It's also really cute, hand drawn and crude. Quite charming)
 

Aeon418

Now, right opposite on the zodiac, we create a second loop to get in order... um, what, exactly?
I assume you are following the old Golden Dawn ordering complete with IV-Heh-Aries and XVII-Tzaddi-Aquarius. Otherwise my full colour extravaganza posted above would have explained everything.

Follow the sequence of emanations down the Tree of Life. Path by path and card by card. Everything looks fine until..... Ooops! it's the Path of Teth and you're holding VIII Justice/Adjustment in your hand. Just swap it with XI Strength/Lust and hope no one notices that you've now got a rather unappealing and unaesthetic loop in the order of the Tarot. Of course you can scribble out the traditional numbers on the cards and swap VIII for XI. But that still leaves you with the the ugly problem of having the double feminine component in the Tetragrammaton represented by the most masculine card in the entire deck!
 

Aeon418

I actually find what Crowley did pretty logical from the Zodiac point of view. GD swaped Lust and Adjustment on the Zodiac, which resulted in forming a loop in the one end of the Zodiac.
That's right. But descending the Tree of Life Leo-Teth arrives before Libra-Lamed, which is the normal zodiac sequence too. When following the Hebrew alphabet order it is the Tarot sequence that must be broken at this point. Unless you want to follow the Golden Dawn, break out the crayons and scribble on some new numbers. :laugh:

With Crowley's swap incorporated you've got two breaks in the Tarot sequence when ordering the cards on the Tree of Life via the Hebrew alphabet. But as already explained in the Colourvision post above this creates an Aries-Aquarius loop around Pisces.
But if you use the Tarot numeral order instead you get a Leo-Libra loop around Virgo.