Majors and Minors Different Origins?

Helmsdale

As a newcomer to this forum (but a student of the tarot for over 20 years) I'm interested in whether the Major and Minor arcana originated together, or if they are two separate sets that were subsequently amalgamated. Certainly, A.E.Waite believed that "the two series do not belong to one another." (p. 66 The Pictorial Key to the Tarot). I'd be keen to read the views of others.

Is there already a thread about this?
 

Helmsdale

Thanks, Bodhiseed
 

Michael Sternbach

To my knowledge, it is the general consensus among historians that the Major and the Minor Arkana originated separately. Albeit I always found it curious that with The Joker, there is the equivalent of The Fool in our usual deck of playing cards, who may have made it there somehow (as would be typical for him).

Of course, Kabbalists insist on the common origin of the two parts of the deck, based on the Tree of Life. (Besides other models to unify all the Tarot cards in one system.)

But imo, that the two parts of the system perhaps did not originate together doesn't imply that they don't belong to each other and perfectly cohere. For a related example, the Zodiac and the Wheel of the Houses, two of Astrology's fundamentals, now even seen as analogous to each other by most astrologers, originated and evolved in different cultures, for what we know.
 

Zephyros

Kabbalistis really don't insist on a common origin, and if they do they are mistaken whether they are Kabbalistis or not. Don't know who you've been talking to. :) It is more a question of things falling to where they do because of the laws of the universe.

What they do believe is simply that the two work well together.

And they do.

Anyway, the Minor Arcana developed from the Mamluke cards, very attractive pieces, look them up. They are like the Visconti, if that were done with Arab abstract art.
 

Richard

.....Of course, Kabbalists insist on the common origin of the two parts of the deck, based on the Tree of Life......
The fact that the Tarot cards can be layered meaningfully onto the Tree of Life implies nothing whatsoever about Tarot origins. Any woo-woo stuff about a Kabbalistic origin of Tarot plays right into the hands of the scoffers, who, goodness knows, don't need any such encouragement.
 

kwaw

As far as I understand it -- pips and courts came first from the East into Europe -- 10 pips of four suits and 2 or maybe 3 courts (all male). Fairly early on in the west a female court was added, as an addition to the courts or a replacement for one of them. So the pips and various court scenarios were around c.14th century, and being 'allegorized'. In the first half of the fifteenth century the tarot trumps appear in the northern cities of Italy. It maybe that they were a separate game, that later was added to the 52/54 pack of cards, or maybe that they were created from the start as a 'trump' suit as an addition to the standard deck.

If they were separate games and subsequently amalgamated, then I suppose Waite has an argument. There is no doubt in my mind from the historical evidence that the trumps were a later addition--but maybe as much as the trumps were an extension of the game (pips/courts), they were as much an extension of the allegorical interpretation that had also apriori been applied to them (pips&courts).
I think that Waite is historically right in that they did not originate together, but that is different to saying they do not belong to one another--they make a perfect couple as far as I am concerned, and one that has stood the test of time. I have no interest in divorcing them. Whether by Fortune or Providence, they work together, and the minors IMHO are as meaningful both in an esoteric and exoteric sense as the majors. I'm not sure if it is a marriage of equals, but of the two, I am not sure which brings the greater dowry.
 

Zephyros

Excellent post kwaw!

Waite was touched by what seems to be Minors-fever, something that seemed to be shared by other occultist of his ilk. I don't know why, but they loved to rag on the Minor Arcana for some reason, saying they weren't important, that the true wisdom was to be found in the Trumps, etc. Even Case seemed to regard them as an afterthought. I never really got why, the two sections are esoterically inseperable, and although they may have been separate once, are today inextricably linked.
 

Teheuti

Playing cards came first (by 1370 in Europe). The earliest Tarot Triumphs (il Trionfos) or Trumps were ADDED TO a set of playing cards as a permanent trump suit around 1440. There had already existed trick-taking games with playing cards that required that a suit be declared trump (forerunners to Whist or Bridge). This was merely an expansion of those kinds of games. The earliest Tarot decks known, both handmade and woodblock printed, included the four suits.

Added: So there isn't a Tarot deck that originated "separately" from playing cards. Playing cards originated separately from Tarot.