What's more powerful an influence? Knighting of mirroring?

Bonny

Knighting ...

First the significator then what it's knighted with...

Woman, letter - letter from a woman, superficial but sociable
Woman, Garden - socially committed woman
Woman, Mice - nervous

Nervous, socially committed woman gets a letter and is superficial but sociable

-

Man, Moon - soulmate, sensitive man
Man, Snake - seductive man, getting in contact with a woman
Man, Heart - romance, enamoured man

Romantic enamoured man is soulmate and sensitive and seductive, gets in contact

-

Snake, Man - man with lover
Snake, Scythe - recovery, suddenly a woman appears
Snake, Fish - woman receives money, financially secure woman, be careful of alcohol consumption
Snake, Cloud - confusion, evil woman
Snake, Child - woman with child, younger woman, short detour
Snake, Anchor - intrigue in the workplace, be alert

There is intrigue in the workplace, as woman receives money.
There is confusion to do with an evil woman.
Suddenly a younger woman with child appears.
There is a man with a lover
 

Bonny

Sorry guys,

Still not sure on what's the more powerful influence, mirroring of knighting ?

If the significator is used then in the knighting do we retain the meaning of that card (e.g snake or rider) or do we just interpret that that person is involved with the others situation in the way refidcted by the other knighting cards?

Cheers, thanks for considering!

B:)
 

Barleywine

Sorry guys,

Still not sure on what's the more powerful influence, mirroring of knighting ?

If the significator is used then in the knighting do we retain the meaning of that card (e.g snake or rider) or do we just interpret that that person is involved with the others situation in the way refidcted by the other knighting cards?

Cheers, thanks for considering!

B:)

I always treat the card I'm knighting from as the focus, the destination card is clarification or additional detail for the significance of the focus card. When two significators knight to the same card, that's where it gets interesting because it becomes a kind of fulcrum or mediating point for the pair. I generally use knighting only with the traditional focus cards for the various "life areas" (love, health, work, home, family, etc.), and only when those are a subject of the reading. (Although sometimes another card is brought into high focus by other methods of analysis, in which case knighting could be worth looking at.) Trying to do too much with it will just tie you up in knots.

Anyway, to answer your question, I find getting value from mirroring much more elusive, and none of the major Lenormand books in English do a good job of explaining it to my satisfaction. (I went back and looked in all the ones I own.)
 

Bonny

I always treat the card I'm knighting from as the focus, the destination card is clarification or additional detail for the significance of the focus card. When two significators knight to the same card, that's where it gets interesting because it becomes a kind of fulcrum or mediating point for the pair. I generally use knighting only with the traditional focus cards for the various "life areas" (love, health, work, home, family, etc.), and only when those are a subject of the reading. (Although sometimes another card is brought into high focus by other methods of analysis, in which case knighting could be worth looking at.) Trying to do too much with it will just tie you up in knots.

Anyway, to answer your question, I find getting value from mirroring much more elusive, and none of the major Lenormand books in English do a good job of explaining it to my satisfaction. (I went back and looked in all the ones I own.)

Thanks for this B!

It's reflecting to me that I have too much to learn to put into discrete questions on this thread. I understand you are saying that you read from the focus card and use knighting on the big questions of life and that mirroring hasn't really got your energy impressed as much , that your research hasn't yielded much on it...
When you say knighting meeting at the Same card, do you mean knighting each other?

For my GT, would you read 'insert name of person' is knighting the focus person/significator or would you read that the 'snake' is knighting the 'man' and read the meanings relating to me, as its my GT.
So what I mean is, would you read 'P is knighting C meaning they are involved in some kind of collaboration of sorts '
Or world you read 'snake Knights man meaning Bonny will experience man with lover scenario in her life '?

Bonny:)
 

Barleywine

Thanks for this B!

It's reflecting to me that I have too much to learn to put into discrete questions on this thread. I understand you are saying that you read from the focus card and use knighting on the big questions of life and that mirroring hasn't really got your energy impressed as much , that your research hasn't yielded much on it...
When you say knighting meeting at the Same card, do you mean knighting each other?

For my GT, would you read 'insert name of person' is knighting the focus person/significator or would you read that the 'snake' is knighting the 'man' and read the meanings relating to me, as its my GT.
So what I mean is, would you read 'P is knighting C meaning they are involved in some kind of collaboration of sorts '
Or world you read 'snake Knights man meaning Bonny will experience man with lover scenario in her life '?

Bonny:)

No, what I'm getting at is, for example, the situation where the Man and Woman cards both knight to the Heart; I would read that as the potential for a strong bond of love between them. It would predispose them toward that. (I've also seen that happen in my readings.)

I don't often read the Snake as a woman, I think of that more as a secondary meaning (unless it's the female same-sex partner card in a reading). Man knighting to Snake might well show a "deceptive or complicated man." If it's obvious that it means a woman in your spread, I would see her as influencing the Man - possibly in a manipulative way - rather than the other way around.
 

Bonny

No, what I'm getting at is, for example, the situation where the Man and Woman cards both knight to the Heart; I would read that as the potential for a strong bond of love between them. It would predispose them toward that. (I've also seen that happen in my readings.)

I don't often read the Snake as a woman, I think of that more as a secondary meaning (unless it's the female same-sex partner card in a reading). Man knighting to Snake might well show a "deceptive or complicated man." If it's obvious that it means a woman in your spread, I would see her as influencing the Man - possibly in a manipulative way - rather than the other way around.

Thanks B,

That's very clear.

And is there another card you could suggest as a significator for a situation like this where I would use the Woman card for myself and there is another female to enquire on in the same spread? Does 'charging' the card work, as in mentally referring meaning upon that card as referring to a person in your life, work.... Or would you buy another set of cards and put two 'woman' cards in for the GT?
(So then which of the original deck would you pull out instead?)

Thanks for all the reading and responses you have so generously given to me here. I feel like I have learnt from a master.

Bonny
 

Barleywine

Thanks B,

That's very clear.

And is there another card you could suggest as a significator for a situation like this where I would use the Woman card for myself and there is another female to enquire on in the same spread? Does 'charging' the card work, as in mentally referring meaning upon that card as referring to a person in your life, work.... Or would you buy another set of cards and put two 'woman' cards in for the GT?
(So then which of the original deck would you pull out instead?)

Thanks for all the reading and responses you have so generously given to me here. I feel like I have learnt from a master.

Bonny

Thanks, but I believe MKG (teheuti) is the contributing master to this thread; I still consider myself a journeyman. You might want to get a deck that has two Woman and two Man cards. They're mainly aimed at same-sex readings, but I see no reason why you couldn't improvise. But it might get awkward because you would then have too many cards. Regarding the "other woman," that's a good question. If it's a "just friends" connection, you could use the Dog, while if it's strictly a "sex object" scenario, possibly the Lilies ("sex-life"), and I know some people consider the Whip as "energetic sex." If it's a rival, though, you're probably best off with the Snake. Hopefully, Mary will chime in here.
 

Teheuti

I don't have time right now to examine the whole GT and that's really what is required here (plus I am unable to tell what many of the cards in your photograph are). Knowing that there is another woman (a rival) in your situation with the Man would have me look to Snake anyway to see what is going on with her. Snake knighting Man says, "Yes, let's look at this situation." On its own it doesn't imply anything more than this. I'd be more worried if Snake was immediately adjacent to Man, although in any of these positions Snake could simply be describing Man.

I don't think there is an answer to your question, "Which is more important mirroring or knighting?" I think it is a matter of the preference and style of the reader.

Neither are mentioned in the original Philippe text. Mirroring is standard in cartomantic techniques (including the oldest), so it is not surprising to see it used. Knighting is, I believe, a very modern addition that replaces the old cartomantic technique of "count __ in every direction from the Significator." The number to count varies (5,7,9,13) and what "every direction means" is unclear. So, I think this was standardized into the knighting concept, which is elegant and unambiguous. It's really the intent that matters and it seems to be helpful.
 

Bonny

Thanks, but I believe MKG (teheuti) is the contributing master to this thread; I still consider myself a journeyman. You might want to get a deck that has two Woman and two Man cards. They're mainly aimed at same-sex readings, but I see no reason why you couldn't improvise. But it might get awkward because you would then have too many cards. Regarding the "other woman," that's a good question. If it's a "just friends" connection, you could use the Dog, while if it's strictly a "sex object" scenario, possibly the Lilies ("sex-life"), and I know some people consider the Whip as "energetic sex." If it's a rival, though, you're probably best off with the Snake. Hopefully, Mary will chime in here.

Well I definitely tip my hat to you.
Very grateful to hear from Teheuti too.

Great! Many thanks! I will aim to get another deck with the two woman and man cards and see about how to slip these in.

B:)
 

Bonny

I don't have time right now to examine the whole GT and that's really what is required here (plus I am unable to tell what many of the cards in your photograph are). Knowing that there is another woman (a rival) in your situation with the Man would have me look to Snake anyway to see what is going on with her. Snake knighting Man says, "Yes, let's look at this situation." On its own it doesn't imply anything more than this. I'd be more worried if Snake was immediately adjacent to Man, although in any of these positions Snake could simply be describing Man.

I don't think there is an answer to your question, "Which is more important mirroring or knighting?" I think it is a matter of the preference and style of the reader.

Neither are mentioned in the original Philippe text. Mirroring is standard in cartomantic techniques (including the oldest), so it is not surprising to see it used. Knighting is, I believe, a very modern addition that replaces the old cartomantic technique of "count __ in every direction from the Significator." The number to count varies (5,7,9,13) and what "every direction means" is unclear. So, I think this was standardized into the knighting concept, which is elegant and unambiguous. It's really the intent that matters and it seems to be helpful.


Thank you Teheuti!!

That's making alot of sense , that it's if the cards are adjacent there's more to look at/for.
Thank-you, I appreciate your time and yes that photograph was very glossy and cards hard to see.

The matter of it being a Readers preference is understandable. You seem to know so much about the history in a very technical manner. If you are running any lessons of know of any where it's possible to learn on these techniques, I would love to hear!

Thanks very much!!!

Bonny