The unwashed general public & the book of Thoth

Barleywine

There is no 'sex magic' taught in the V degree.

Probably. I'm not in a position to know. Since it wasn't immediately relevant to how I wanted to use the Thoth deck at that time, I never felt compelled to pursue Crowley's statements beyond my one attempt to contact the O.T.O. I don't fare well with elaborate ritual anyway, so it's probably just as well.
 

Aeon418

It was indicated to me some time after that perhaps that was a test, just as Aeon418 said. I've concluded it's a way to humiliate you right away, designed to get you breaking down your ego from the get-go.
Possibly. But I've never seen it used like that. Usually it's just a way that a particular group can gauge a newcomers level of interest. The 'merely curious' are usually put off by the initial rebuff. But those who are really, really interested won't be daunted by a bit of silence.
 

ravenest

Inherited, yes. When I first approached qabalah over 40 years ago, I felt a kind of immediate "ancestral connection" to it. Although my father's family ostensibly came from Germany, both he and his fatrher were dark-haired and dark-complexioned, wirh piercing black eyes; nothing Aryan about either of those gentlemen. My brother and I concluded that they looked Saracen, and had to be of Middle Eastern extraction, which might help explain the sympathetic reaction I felt. Back in the early '80s, I contacted the Upstate New York chapter of the O.T.O about joining because I was starved for intelligent interaction on my interests, but they never responded.


Classic, absolute classic ! Did you know the officers in the first preliminary initiation degrees are acting the part of the greatest known Saracen (and his assistants) in History ?

These things happen :) ... one guy, in our group was freaked out after his Minerval initiation ; "Wow! You guys do your homework ! Thats a bit freaky ! How did you find out all that stuff about me ? "

"Huh ? What stuff ?"

"All that stuff about my past, my family, my ancestors, where I went and travelled to ?"

" I dont know what you mean ?"

"In the ritual you said I was ..... and ..... and came from 'A' and 'B' place and was on my way to 'C' and ...... "

"No, thats the ritual, those names people and places are symbolic and have a meaning to be studied and comprehended, the ritual is the same for everyone."

" But I AM .... and .... and I DID come from A and B and travelled to C and I did ..... ! "

Me ; " WHAT ? ! :bugeyed: "

( we checked up on him ... it was true ! )



Maybe I should have sent money?

Maybe you should have persevered ? Or maybe back then they were not that together, things have moved on a LOT since then . O r maybe .... anything .... a little speed hump at the beginning to see what you would do about it .

Man ... some things, like this, I have had to punch my way through !

The same was true when I began exploring druid-craft, but on my mother's side. Her lineage is Lowland Scots and Irish. Of course, the link there may be less tenuous since my maternal grandmother read playing cards (although never for us kids), and one of my mother's first cousins is a Spiritualist medium. It seems to be in the blood.

My grandmother was Spanish and read tarot and crystal ball. I didnt find that out until about half way through my life. My sister told me, after she did a lot of research on it. The rest of the family hid that and covered it up . I never knew her, they 'got rid of her' - somehow before I was born.

Sometimes it does seem all amazingly connected below the outer surface.
 

ravenest

Initial silence isn't always what it appears to be. Sometimes you have to take a leaf out of the Jehovah's Witness handbook, and keep banging on the door until someone answers. (And don't stop if you see the curtains twitch! :laugh:)

:thumbsup:


I have seen people drop out at the first growl from the dog in the front yard :)

me? I had nothing, no transport and 'no hope' of achieving it . But I had this dream after I applied ... an amazing dream.

So I packed a back pack, with tarot cards and started hitch hiking the 700 km. A two day adventure. I got there at 3 am after traversing sydney from one side to the other ... after braving the guardians at the threshold - various 'help groups', coffee vans trying to pull me off the street ... poor county bumpkin, lost in the big city, about to get robbed or killed :D

One guy tried to stop me from walking there as he said it was too far and my route led straight through Oxford St ! ! :eek: !

Me; " and sooooo ??? "

"Well ...... they are all homosexuals and lesbians there ! "

Me : " and soooo ???" :laugh:

I made it past these fearsome guardians, that potentially threatened my very morality ! :) and slept in any alley way , repleate with broken glass and catfights.

That morning cam the big test (another story that ! )

I had to pay dues and fees before joining up and first initiation * and had no money. So I went and tarot busked at a nearby market and made more than enough, went and bought a big feed, paid the money and did it.

Then hitch hiked home ( with a two day detour at some isolated beach house that a wonderful person owned who picked me up while I was hitching ) :)

There is this great Sufi story ... its called 'The Man who threw himself into the river.' - worth a read.

* dues and fees are for membership and physical costs incurred for the ceremony, they are not allowed to charge for teachings or the ceremony performance.
 

ravenest

Ah... what the heck ... I will tell you about this 'big test' and the trials that must be passed when one approaches the threshold :)

The sun rises and I awake in the alley. I hear noises in the house I was to stay at, they are awake now so I knock on the door, explaining I didnt want to wake them at 4 am .

They tell me I am nuts, they are all off to work (its a big house, with a few people living there ) my friend says I can use her room, the shower, the kitchen, make yourself at home, I will be back at 5 pm. )

So I have a shower, and then go into the kitchen and put some coffee on, I am wearing only a towel. Then I hear a noise, I had opened the door to let some air in and just in the door, their cat has a bird, still alive that it is torturing. So I get the cat bird off the cat and take it outside, still in the towel and let it go .....

... slam ... the front door ... could have been the wind, but I not convinced it couldnt have been the cat :mad:

I try it, its locked, I go around the back, its locked, all the windows are barred ... I am in towel ... Oh shiiiit! .

I have nothing but a towel on. I go to the corner shop, and the greek old man and his wife there are ... lets say a little suspicious ... I mange to explain to them and they let me borrow their phone book and give me money to use the public phone. I eventually find the company where my friend works and ring her to see if she can send a key on a taxi or something, but they say she just went out with a client and will not be back until after lunch.

So now I am back on the street, in a towel, in an inner city urban environment. I look up to the third floor and it has a little attic room and the window is open .... yes!

There is a drain pipe running up the wall, next to the window. ..... Naaah! climbing up a drain pipe in a towel , besides, sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

But then I notice there are buiders down the street ... with a ladder .... a ladder !

I manage to convince them I am not some crazy street guy and they decide to laugh and help me. They hold the ladder steady and I climb up, by now all dignity has gone 'out the window' as I am 2 stories up and my towel is flapping in the wind.

I am just about to reach that window and ... ahead pops out "What the hell are you doing ! ? "

I explain , still on the ladder, and he says, he is one of the girls boyfriends that stayed over from last night and slept in. "Why the hell didnt you just knock on the front door?"

"Well, I was told everyone was going out for the day, I didnt know you where in there."

So I climbed down the ladder, and thaned the builders, who were now giving me the most 'you are a dumbarse' look, and knocked on the door.

And when I was let in ... I swear, that cat was going me a real smart arse look :mad:

But ! I persevered ... I made it ... I triumphed ..... < a little fanfare ... victory dance >

... Oh ! I better put something else on other than this towel before I do that !
 

ravenest

I had a similar response from the WA (Australian) chapter. It was indicated to me some time after that perhaps that was a test, just as Aeon418 said. I've concluded it's a way to humiliate you right away, designed to get you breaking down your ego from the get-go. I see the point but am deeply distrustful of putting myself at the mercy of people I can't even see like that.

Mercy ?

Ummmm ..... they just might have not been that together ? I have seen many incompetent people in all sorts of organisations ... or a bad system that lets things and letters slip through, get forgotten, etc.

Sometimes it is best to contact the group first and everyone get to know each other a bit before one even decides one wants to go ahead.

You would not believe some of the application letters I have read ! OMG! No, I should not really judge ... but one requirement IS that an applicant has 2 sponsors. If no one knows you (yet, which is why I recommend 'making friends' first ) and they sponsor you, it is rather them that are at your mercy (as by sponsoring you they are taking responasability for what you bring into the group and the effect you have on it ) .

Its all very tricky, and a lot of the trickyness can be dispelled by all getting to know each first and then seeing if both sides feel good about it.

On the other side, that is what the 9 months 'probation' period of a Minerval can be used for. After 9 months the Minerval may say "no thanks' and walk away ... that, officially, is perfectly fine. Actually, one can walk away at any time with no probs - I did .

I did jump in the river ... it turned out great ! Nowadays, being older and wiser (but perhaps that limits me ? ) I will test the water first .
 

thorhammer

Sometimes it is best to contact the group first and everyone get to know each other a bit before one even decides one wants to go ahead.

Precisely what I wanted to do. But...well. It's all still very Victorian.
 

ravenest

It might be helpful to rephrase sentences like this. What I see when reading these is more like:

Pg 76: Fifth degree initiates of the OTO should notice this pelican

Pg 59: Ninth degree initiates of the OTO will recognise this

Pg 102: Advanced students of alchemy will find this most familiar

Pg 103: Ninth degree OTO initiates utilise this in practical magic

I think it's useful to remember that the Thoth deck was intended to be Thelma illustrated, and the OTO as a Thelemic organisation is referenced frequently. It's not really very different than saying 'a chemist will understand this chemical formula best', but a bit of victorian pomposity in the phrasing :D

If you're not interested in the OTO, may as well use your own interpretation I'd say :)

yes, thats all fine, and of course, as, what else can one do about it ? so :thumbsup:

But I would not re-write Crowley here. he often is careful in his word selection for specific reasons.

The Thoth deck uses Thelmeic symbols but it specifically relates to the Thelemic system as presented in the OTO, evidenced by card imagery and commentary.

If I were to extrapolate on "'with regard to the Pelican, it's full symbolism is only available to initiates of the fifth degree of the O.T.O.' "

I might say " The full symbolism in this tarot deck, as an adjunct to studying the mysteries of the OTO can only be fully understood, on this plane, in concert with the 5th degree ceremony, so put what you see and read about in this card together with what you learnt in your 5th degree. "
 

ravenest

Probably. I'm not in a position to know. Since it wasn't immediately relevant to how I wanted to use the Thoth deck at that time, I never felt compelled to pursue Crowley's statements beyond my one attempt to contact the O.T.O. I don't fare well with elaborate ritual anyway, so it's probably just as well.

Each to their own ... sound like BOTA was more 'up your alley'.
 

ravenest

Precisely what I wanted to do. But...well. It's all still very Victorian.

Victorian ?

I thought it would have been all very 'Western Australian' ?


:)


Our group was faaar from 'Victorian' ... we did have a large bunch of women in it ... and a cross over with some pagans.

You should see our 'Rites of Eleusis' photos ... :) not Victorian at all !


Regional groups can be very diff from each other.