rachelcat
Wow! This is important information! No other explicators or BofT have it. Now, how do we reverse-engineer the crystals to figure out which angel names are on which card??!!
Geometric Shapes on Sword Minors.
thinbuddha
Frieda Harris said:
So is this the same as the magic squares? Sounds like it could be. Actual;ly, it sounds like this was the answer all along. Great find Lillie, and good call ravenest!
Lillie
I don't know how it could be done, but I think Ravenest has been trying via magic squares and that sort of thing.
How ever, she don't mention magic squares (though it was what was in my mind when I thought of the quote) she only mentions squared paper.
It's such a tantalising hint!
Which is why it's always stuck in my mind.
My mind actually gave it far more prominence than it really has, which is why it took me so long to find.
How ever, she don't mention magic squares (though it was what was in my mind when I thought of the quote) she only mentions squared paper.
It's such a tantalising hint!
Which is why it's always stuck in my mind.
My mind actually gave it far more prominence than it really has, which is why it took me so long to find.
ravenest
rachelcat said:
Well, I did my bit, its over to you RC!
ravenest
Good one Froggy!Lillie said:
"Their" Gardian angels? Wot, the cards? The sword minors have gaurdian angels now? How, by the number on the card.
What the hell is the 'Guardian angel of the 4 of swords'?
It would seem that their 'hidden' (already hidden or now hidden in the design?) names have been broken down into letters and each letter was given a value to make it appear "worked out in numbers". Otherwise, the whole name "worked out in numbers" would be one number (its gematric value).
Oh, its all too vague and unexplained to even begin understanding what she did. Its one of those explainations which appears to be saying that the explainer hasnt a clue either, or if they do, we are not going to get it, they will conceal it with innuendo.
There must be record of this somewhere, ( amore accurate description of the process that is), its just finding it.
rachelcat
Gulp!!! I guess I put my foot in it now!!ravenest said:
It's time to open those very large, mysterious books I bought when I was researching 72 names angels. They contain many squiggles based on magic squares that I think are symbols for angel and/or spirits. The hard part will be trying to match them up with the crystals, wings, whatever they are, on the swords cards! And then figuring out what it all means.
My little bit of learning is truly a dangerous thing!!
Aeon418
All of the minor arcana have two angels from the Shem ha Memphorash assigned to them. For example the 3 of Swords has the angels Hariel and Hakamiah. I'm guessing that Crowley constructed the correct sigils of the angel names using the appropriate planetary Kameas of the minor cards in question. In the case of the 3 of Swords he would have used the Kamea of Saturn. Crowley could have given these sigils to Harris and asked her to incorporate artistic, stylised versions of the sigils in her renditions of the cards.
rachelcat
Of course! I think DuQuette's deck even has the two sigils for the two angels right on the cards! That will be the first place to look. When I get home tonight!
Aeon418
DuQuette's minor cards carry the names of the angels but not the sigils. The actual sigils on the cards relate the 72 demons of the Goetia.
ravenest
Yes, taking the 'leap' that they are not 'Guardian Angels' at all and what he meant were the angels of the Shemhamphorash, there are 72 which (in some systems) rule each 5 degrees of the Zodiac. Therefore 2 angels rule each minor card( which each rule a decan of the Zodiac). For swords that works out to be
2- IEIAZEL, MEBAHEL. 3- HARIEL, HAKAMIAH. 4- LEVIAH, GALIEL. 5- ANIEL, HAAMIAH. 6- RAHAEL,IHIAZEL. 7- HAHAHEL, MICHAEL. 8- UMABEL, IAHHEL. 9- ANNUEL, MEKEKIEL. 10- DAMABIAH, MENIEL.
To give these letters a number value we have two possibilities. 1- Frieda used the Cabalah of Nine Chambers to get a letter value (1-9) or she used the normal values associated with the letters. Usually in this type of operation (in the G.D. / A.C. tradition) the Cabalah of Nine Chamers is used.
If Frieda used 'squared paper' (graph paper?) and not a magick square and wrote the numbers in consecutive order she wouldn't have used a grid of 9x9 with the nine chambers because;
123456789
123456789
123456789
Using a different number makes more sense, like 8
12345678
91234567
89123456
as the numbers are staggered and more able to produce an 'irregular' design.
However, I know from expereince that it is a lot easier to make magic squares using squared paper or gragp paper as its a tedious pain to manually draw up accurate graphs each time, so she may have used the square paper to start off her magic square. (I'm taking the point that the dude in question wouldn't know a magick square from squared paper with numbers on it if he didnt know the difference between a Guardian Angel and a Shemhamphorash [unless he meant that those angels are the Guardian Angels for the cards???])
Also many letters in the names are repeated, eg. HAHAHEL only gives 4 points for 7 letters (in drawing up a sigil this is remidied by looping the line back to the number so you have a double line and are not going back and forward tracing over the same line). But with a grid (as above) showing each number several times allows one to plot a different position each time a letter is repeated.
The design on 4 swords appears to be on a grid of at least 15 points. I wonder how many boxes were on graph paper that was printed around Friedas time?
The other possibility is that she did use a magic square or Kamea of a planet
(The best ref. for this GD system is In "How to Make Sigils and Talismans' by Israel Regardie, a presice and brief handbook) where that uses the Cabalah of Nine Chambers.
So I guess its back to the magic squares and plotting the points with numbers from the angels names. (Just as well I bought a graph book
)
In any case the shapes made are not the nice star/crystal, balanced but chaotic shapes of Friedas but this can be remidied by surperimposing the reverse of the shape over the original (and eliminating the problem of the bottom of the square not being used). Also with 2 angels for each card there woukld be 2 shapes, with superimposing; 4. Now I think we might be getting something closer to the 'regular but chaotic' 'crystals' Frieda drew up.
We could possibly nut this out given a bit more time.
2- IEIAZEL, MEBAHEL. 3- HARIEL, HAKAMIAH. 4- LEVIAH, GALIEL. 5- ANIEL, HAAMIAH. 6- RAHAEL,IHIAZEL. 7- HAHAHEL, MICHAEL. 8- UMABEL, IAHHEL. 9- ANNUEL, MEKEKIEL. 10- DAMABIAH, MENIEL.
To give these letters a number value we have two possibilities. 1- Frieda used the Cabalah of Nine Chambers to get a letter value (1-9) or she used the normal values associated with the letters. Usually in this type of operation (in the G.D. / A.C. tradition) the Cabalah of Nine Chamers is used.
If Frieda used 'squared paper' (graph paper?) and not a magick square and wrote the numbers in consecutive order she wouldn't have used a grid of 9x9 with the nine chambers because;
123456789
123456789
123456789
Using a different number makes more sense, like 8
12345678
91234567
89123456
as the numbers are staggered and more able to produce an 'irregular' design.
However, I know from expereince that it is a lot easier to make magic squares using squared paper or gragp paper as its a tedious pain to manually draw up accurate graphs each time, so she may have used the square paper to start off her magic square. (I'm taking the point that the dude in question wouldn't know a magick square from squared paper with numbers on it if he didnt know the difference between a Guardian Angel and a Shemhamphorash [unless he meant that those angels are the Guardian Angels for the cards???])
Also many letters in the names are repeated, eg. HAHAHEL only gives 4 points for 7 letters (in drawing up a sigil this is remidied by looping the line back to the number so you have a double line and are not going back and forward tracing over the same line). But with a grid (as above) showing each number several times allows one to plot a different position each time a letter is repeated.
The design on 4 swords appears to be on a grid of at least 15 points. I wonder how many boxes were on graph paper that was printed around Friedas time?
The other possibility is that she did use a magic square or Kamea of a planet
(The best ref. for this GD system is In "How to Make Sigils and Talismans' by Israel Regardie, a presice and brief handbook) where that uses the Cabalah of Nine Chambers.
So I guess its back to the magic squares and plotting the points with numbers from the angels names. (Just as well I bought a graph book
)In any case the shapes made are not the nice star/crystal, balanced but chaotic shapes of Friedas but this can be remidied by surperimposing the reverse of the shape over the original (and eliminating the problem of the bottom of the square not being used). Also with 2 angels for each card there woukld be 2 shapes, with superimposing; 4. Now I think we might be getting something closer to the 'regular but chaotic' 'crystals' Frieda drew up.
We could possibly nut this out given a bit more time.
