Thelema, OTO, Golden Dawn...

sweet_intuition

Aeon418 said:
Everything may already be in print but do you know what do with it? How to start? Or which direction to go? That's where a magical order may help you the most.
Of course there's nothing stopping you from making a start right now on your own.

That makes sense. However, the question of which one to join is another puzzle on it's own.

On the internet I found two different kinds of Golden Dawn orders, different thelema based orders... and two rosicrucian orders (One christian based, the other egyptian based).... lol... makes one wonder which is which
 

Ross G Caldwell

sweet_intuition said:
So there isn't any point in joining such organizations as all the work is already printed and available via book stores and the internet?

No, no! I wouldn't recommend this. It is not all in your head, or even in your personal efforts. So much passes through you, goes on without your knowledge, without your effort. You just have to put yourself in a position where learning, conscious or unconscious, is more likely than if you are alone with your books and your discursive, arguing mind.

Woody Allen had a good line, I think it went "90 per cent of life is just showing up", or something like that. A little effort goes a LONG way, especially if that little effort is to put yourself among people who have been on the path a lot longer. When your initial inertia is overcome, the ball really does start rolling, whether it has to do with spiritual initiation, or with getting a job, or making a presentation when you don't feel like it. Effort is like a seed - it only grows when it is planted. Planting is easy, but often we don't feel like it, or even believe that it can grow without our help. A minimal gesture goes a long way.

Magical orders, like churches and self-help groups, are all the same - they are full of people who just want to belong, who don't know anything, who are fakers, liars, sometimes manipulators - but their are always a few who are sincere and genuinely trustworthy. And they will go out of their way to help you, effortlessly and without any desire for reward or any other ulterior motive. They will become your teachers, if and when you are ready. And sometimes that may be long after they are gone.

There is a Hindu concept called "darshan" - it means that just seeing or touching a divinity is enough to pass on something - you don't have to think about it. This is how it is with teachers - when you meet somebody who really has attained what you want, just seeing them in the flesh conveys infinitely more than reading about them can do. In fact, it changes you forever. You gain confidence and knowledge, you learn viscerally, with your whole body, soul and person, not just with your head.

The main value, and the essential value of joining an order you trust, whatever your reservations about any number of members, is that you will get this darshan, you will meet one or more teachers who will give you the certainty and confidence that there is something worth searching for, worth, in the end, working for with all your might.

You *must* keep working alone, but when you know there are real beings you have met, people like you who have advanced to where you would like to be, then you will not feel alone, and you will not let despair and hopelessness and feelings of futility get to you. When you don't have these examples before you, you will almost certainly succumb to feeling like "none of this is worth it."

This is the real meaning of a magical order, and a magical teacher. Not just to guide you - they may not know they are doing it, or may not be trying to - but the fact is that in the end, they do. And you will know it when it happens.

The only thing you have to do is make an effort to meet these kinds of people, in the places they are most likely to be. The gods don't expect much more of anyone.

(oh, also, be SINCERE - if you have base motives, anything less than true initiation, you will find yourself worse than before - more cynical, despairing, and perhaps completely alienated from yourself and others. An initiation in itself, but a waste of a life - or a least a lot of time).
 

sweet_intuition

Hey Ross

Wow. Reading through your post was an enlightening experience on it's own. Thank you so much for your encouraging words of wisdom. Many a things you say rung very true to me, especially the things you said about "darshan". It really made me think about certain things, and it's so true what you said about being SINCERE.

Thank You :)
 

Lillie

Yeah, that stuff about the GD splinter groups.
That's what I reckoned.
Any famous name and someone will try to appropriate it.
But it don't mean they really are them.

The OTO.
Predated Crowley, didn't it?

I was part of a Magickal organisation once.
It was a strange time in my life.

I'm not sure if I would wish to repeat the experience.

But still, I don't particularly regret it.
 

sweet_intuition

Hey Lillie,

If you don't mind, could you share with us some of your experiences of the magical organization. I hope you don't think I'm being too nosey or anything, but I really am curious to know about such organizations and people's experiences regarding them.
 

Lillie

Ummm.
No.

I shouldn't really have mentioned it in the first place.
It's not something I talk about.

Oh, one fun thing, magickal rituals in stone circles at midnight.

Otherwise it's all sort of weird.
funny time in my life.

it wasn't one that's been mentioned here. Nothing famous.
 

SilentBreeze

I've always wanted to join an organization like that. The mystery of these kinds of groups always makes them kind of attractive to me but I doubt there will be one I could trust. Its one of those things that I would like to join but it may be a stupid thing to do. However, all of this is very facinating, just learning what ever you can about these organizations is facinating. If I had the chance I might join or I might end up a bit to scared.
 

AbstractConcept

I absolutley love Crowley's "tea party" reference to magickal orders in Magick Without Tears. All these years on and it still holds true.

I've been flirting with O.T.O here in Sydney for a little while now, but the timing hasn't been the best. I'm in it for the networking (interesting considering how I opened this post!) and the passion plays. Kind of a social experiment too, coz I generally don't mix well with "regular" people :)

with any luck though I'll have my sponsorship meeting by the end of november.

So I guess I'm all for groups. The right ones for the right people. From all my reading and studying of G.D (mostly Israel Regardie and those Cicero people) its a bit archaic and dull for my liking. great theory but just doesn't gel with me. to me its like the old aeon Heirophant. it has no sex appeal ;)
 

le pendu

Ross G Caldwell said:
No, no! I wouldn't recommend this. It is not all in your head, or even in your personal efforts. So much passes through you......

Wonderful post Ross, thanks!
 

ravenest

A bit of this, a bit of that, a lot of the other.

Hi S.I. I am a Thelemite but dont belong to a 'Thelemic group'. I have studied and worked a fair bit of G.D. but am not a member. I have been in the OTO about 15 years. Lately I am pretty much 'retired' except for whatever personal practice takes my fancy.

It's hard to communicate the experience as it might be totally different to the one you would have, we each carry our own baggage and 'karma' into the future with us and allow it to 'colour' new experiences.

I'd suggest that magical groups are not the only ones surrounded in controversy, if that's going to stop you then I suggest that you dont get involved with politics, local government, the church down the road, any sort of cult, most religions and the local PTA. [And maybe even our own families:laugh:]

They charge money, why wouldn't they? A temple is needed or the rental of a hall or even being invited into someones home for the ritual work (can you imagine inviting virtual strangers into your home environment to work magick?), they are either crazy or extemely dedicated. Then there is the temple furniture, tools, regailia, not to mention the endless hours of practice to get a 30 page script word perfect, etc etc.

I'm not suggesting that there are not magical money grabbers out there but I feel that as far as money rip-offs go the New Age movement would put them to shame.

What really has pissed me off is when you do all this for someone, ask for a fee that probably covers no more than 15% of the costs (and non of the trouble or heartache) and then they dont even bother to turn up for the ceremony. grrrr! Then offer some lame excuse that they have just come up with when they have already had 2 months to contemplate it (some times 6 months or longer) and sort out their issues bfore setting a date.

As Mike said (and you agreed) the community is an important factor, like minded people and all that. (Which I suppose is why most of us are here at AT.] I remember being 19 and NEVER encountering anyone in the previous 5 years who had any interest in magick, Thelema, tarot, etc, the first one I met ... wow! (she's still a life-long friend!)

Charters. Yes, ask to see a charter. I have them but people didnt really understand what it meant. Some people contacted magical teachers, 'ascended masters', whatever, and I asked them what were these peoples qualifications and experience? Well, they couldnt answer. Changed the subject and then started to blame me for .... something?

Anyway, where do we suppose these first charters came from? Theodore Reuss (early OTO) supposedly used to sell them. Reading Crowleys writings, he seemed to envisage a good trade in them and certificates. They were often traded back and forwards, of course they are just bits of paper and do not show any sort of attainment in reality (heck, I myself am a 'Perfect Master' :laugh:) but they do have another side when they are justified and legit, you can trace a liniage with them.

OTO / AA. yep, 2 different kettles of fish. The AA is an 'inner order', secret masters and all that. [If I am interested in listening to a secret master, I'll make my own link thanks, I dont need to hear someones version of what they are saying] The OTO takes its direction from its head (a human) and its ruling committies. One distinction between them is AA does require some type of perfection and deffinatly proof of attainments while the OTO does not. eg. If you are required to bow at the door before entering and you cannot (maybe your spine has a steel rod in it), that would be accepted as a valid excuse in the OTO and some other similar action would surfice. In the AA you wouldnt get past the door, that's your karma, better luck next time around. [Well, in theory anyway.]

The OTO suggests and guides you, but it's up to you. The AA requires examination and tabulated results. Think you are good at Yoga? OK sit there in Lotus for 1/2 an hour with a saucerfull of water on your head and dont spill a drop, that's AA. There is nothing like this in the writings of the OTO, the OTO suggests a curriculem and offers assistence, but its up to you how you impliment it.

One thing a lot of people miss, or aren't aware of: The OTO is also a social experiment, it's finding and experimenting with new ways of people being able to relate to each other and eventually create societies (see 'Cult Vs Culture' intro to Equinox 3, 10, Hymaneaus Beta). And also the whole degree structure of the OTO is a model for running the many aspects of your own self (see the Constitution of the OTO). The 'Supreme and Holy King' may seem an incredibly pompous title but to excell at ... well, anything really,
we need to find your own internal King and rule the empire of ourselves. There are many other analogies as well eg. The Man of Earth degrees has no say or vote in the running of the order, this can be related to the autonomous functions. The revolutionaries? (Has 'one part' of 'you' never been persuaded to do something that another part doesnt want to do? Habits and addictions are a good example of this process. What is it in ourselves that says, "Go on have a ciggarette, you know you want it." and what is it that says "NO I've given up!")


All I can add is that my expereince in the OTO has been absolutly invaluible, but it was a hard slog, demading and confronting, like a lot of things, you get out what you put in.

For my first initiation I had to hitchike over 600 km to get there, no money. I slept in an alleyway in the city on my first night arrival (2am) I 'busked' with my tarot cards the next moning to get the money to pay my dues and fees. Books were hard to get, etc. etc. struggle ... but = appreciation.

The last few years I have seen people winge and drop out and the slightest speed hump. ... that isnt the way to learn magick or achieve initiation in my opinion.

So yes, check it all out as much as you can, and if you decide to join a group give it a decent fair go, dont expect not to be challenged, stuff is going to come up ... a lot more than sitting at home reading about it. Dont expect to find a group with no dickheads in it or a teacher with no faults.