8 of Cups -- Indolence

Julien

Aeon418 said:
I think everyone likes Debauch and Indolence. :laugh:

Mm... Sort of... I rather think they're wonderful terms to capture an idea, but I find both cards very.... Unnerving. It may be my Wandsie-ness coming out though -- all that water makes me nervous. :)

I was thinking today about the opposite of Indolence -- if this card is in certain contexts, nuanced understandings of its opposite can be helpful in readings... Or, if it shows up in a way that says, "this is where you are, but you can change it..." Playing with the word, as I've found it to be fascinating in an unnerving way -- reading through a thesaurus in fact... So many things can be antonyms. "lively" came up...

But the one that really drew my attention was "interested", because Indolence brings with it the idea of being UNinterested (and I don't me DISinterested, which seems more the role of, say, the Princess of Swords? objectivity and no emotional responses -- pure intellect)... I thought "interested" missed the point some, though as it seemed much too cerebral...

Aeon418 said:
But Saturn gives you a clue how to get out of the swamp of Pisces....WORK!!! Pull your socks up, grab yourself by the collar and get up off your backside and show the world what you're made of ........ if only you could find the energy..... urgh..... maybe tomorrow....

Isn't Debauch the one where the energy is really at a low? Indolence seems as though... Well, you have energy -- you go through the motions -- but the feeling isn't there... Work, yes... But work with interest in what you're doing. And learn to feel again. It intrigues me that the 9 of Cups is the next card after Indolence. Indolence and then the Lord of Happiness... Which suggests you have to get to a place where you cease to care before you can really appreciate all that love brings with it... Or someting...

Speaking of work, I must go get some rest from mine... :) Hope I didn't wander too much in my ramblings here.... ;)

Julien
 

Aeon418

Julien said:
Isn't Debauch the one where the energy is really at a low? Indolence seems as though... Well, you have energy -- you go through the motions -- but the feeling isn't there... Work, yes... But work with interest in what you're doing. And learn to feel again.
No, I don't see Debauch and Indolence like that at all really.
First of all, Debauch to me is the exact opposite of a low. A debauch is a complete excess in some direction or another. As Crowley comments on this card it is "the invariable weakness arising from lack of balance". It's the normal and healthy "Pleasure" of the 6 of Cups taken to extremes. So much so that it becomes a literal poison. This is one reason why I sometimes apply "addictions" and "obsessions" to this card.

Indolence - 8 of Cups, on the other hand, is almost like the morning after the night before. It's that time when you realise you've been writing cheques that you're body can't cash. It's that awful moment, the come down from the high of the wild Debauch. At it's most extreme this card is "cold turkey".

EDIT: Crowley's novel, Diary of a Drug Fiend can give you some real insights into these two cards. ;)
 

Lillie

Interesting what Julien was saying about Indolence being 'uninterested', and being followed by the Lord of Happiness.

It intrigues me that the 9 of Cups is the next card after Indolence. Indolence and then the Lord of Happiness... Which suggests you have to get to a place where you cease to care before you can really appreciate all that love brings with it... Or someting...

I think that true happiness has to have an element of not caring, or of giving up.

Only when you have stoped caring, stopped striving can you be really happy.
That contentment inside yourself that say's 'well, everything is not as I would like it, but I don't care, I will be happy anyway'.

It's hard to explain.
It's sort of letting it all go and being content with the way things are.
you see it sometimes in peoples faces.
Like when someone has had a really bad life, or live in a really bad situation, and yet they smile and there is a look on their faces which is so happy despite everything around them that ought to be making them worried or sad or afraid, and it just doesn't get to them.
They are happy in a way which has nothing to do with all the ordinary things that are supposed to make us happy.
 

Julien

Lillie said:
It's sort of letting it all go and being content with the way things are.
you see it sometimes in peoples faces.
Like when someone has had a really bad life, or live in a really bad situation, and yet they smile and there is a look on their faces which is so happy despite everything around them that ought to be making them worried or sad or afraid, and it just doesn't get to them.
They are happy in a way which has nothing to do with all the ordinary things that are supposed to make us happy.

Yes, I know precisely what you mean. And so the progression is so fascinating in the Cups suit as a whole... There is something in Debauch with speaks of holding on too tightly to Pleasure, until, finally, you have to let go and Indolence becomes the energy of the moment. This, then, seems the threshold of true happiness. But the truly happy moment comes after Indolence, not during. Letting go brings the joy, yes?

Julien
 

Lillie

Yes.

It's the letting go that brings the joy.
And the relief.

Then you get sick of it all being so happy happy and that's saiety.

Then it all starts again.

So it goes.
 

mooiedragon

Indolence vs Debauch

Just my two cents

I see the 7 of Cups as being more stagnant than the 8. With debauch it's as if everything is wasted, the water that flows from the cups is gooey and sticky and sludgy. But Indolence is almost the turning point - the atmosphere surrounding the cups is so different. It's like the mind had to go dark to understand how to change. The water is flowing again - some of it is wasted and there are some cups that are empty (not full and overflowing with green goop like Debauch). This suggests movement to me. Movement of the mind, I guess. Which is pretty much what everybody has been saying.