The Tarot symbols origin

Cartomancer

Moonstranger said:
Hello!

Would anyone like to share the opinions about the origin of the Arcana Tarot symbols? As these pictures do not exist in our world.

It is my opinion that the Major Arcana Tarot symbols originated in the heavens and do not exist in our world. The pictures of the Major Arcana are actually pictures of constellations that existed at the time the Tarot cards were created. For example, the Strength card is a picture of the constellation Hercules as a young man wrestling with the Nemean Lion.

There does appear to be a certain law or code in relation to the Tarot. Images of constellations on 14th and 15th century European star maps appear in the Tarot Major Arcana pictures. These star maps had figures and images from Classical mythology, including Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and later Christian. Those claiming that these images can't be found in art and drawings of the era the Tarot cards were created haven't looked closely at the star maps of that day. The iconographic identification, description and interpretation of the Tarot images, their subjects and other elements is done by refering to each card's constellational counterpart. See my post for my correspondence between constellations, Tarot cards, and the Hebrew alphabet. -Lance

The Alphabet and the Tarot:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=3537377&postcount=56

DoctorArcanus

Cartomancer said:
Those claiming that these images can't be found in art and drawings of the era the Tarot cards were created haven't looked closely at the star maps of that day.

Hello Cartomancer, I don't think there are many people claiming that most tarot images were not common in XV century Europe. Most of those images were almost ubiquitous (e.g. the three virtues, the Emperor, the Pope, the Sun, the Moon). A few of the images clearly have a religious meaning (e.g. the Devil, Judgement). Such images were more common in religious works of art than in astrological illustrations.

Cartomancer said:
The iconographic identification, description and interpretation of the Tarot images, their subjects and other elements is done by refering to each card's constellational counterpart. See my post for my correspondence between constellations, Tarot cards, and the Hebrew alphabet. -Lance

The Alphabet and the Tarot:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=3537377&postcount=56

These associations are not compatible with what we know of how the cards were interpreted at the time of their invention. The names of the cards in most cases provide a clear hint of the meaning attributed to them. So, the Devil represents the Devil, not the constellation of Capricorn: both the Capricorn and the Devil have horns, but, if one searches for XV century images of the Capricorn and the Devil, it is easy to see that the card represents the Devil. Both Death (in a few illustrations) and Sagittarius (by definition) have a bow, but once again it is not possible to misinterpret an image of Death, because the Sagittarius was not represented as a skeleton or a corpse.

Also, consider that during the Renaissance an expanded tarot deck was created in Florence (the “minchiate”). In that deck, the standard trumps coexist with the twelve constellations of the zodiac, and the two sets of images created no confusion in players, just because it was not possible to confuse the Capricorn and the Devil, the Death and Saggitarius and so on. http://www.tarot.org.il/Minchiate/Trumps.html

The higher trumps (XV-XXI) represent the end of times, as described in the Book of Revelation and in similar eschatological texts. Illustrations of the Book of Revelation provide good examples of the trumps of this section, including one of the less common images: the Tower.

9th century illumination
illumination representing the 4th trumpet

As an example of the texts that originated this iconographic tradition, here is an excerpt from a medieval prophecy:

Tiburtine Sybil said:
In that time a prince of iniquity, who will be called Antichrist, [XV] will rise up from the tribe of Dan. He will be a son of perdition, the head of pride, the master of error, the fullness of malice, who will subvert the earth and will do prodigies and great signs by means of false simulations. He will delude many through the art of magic so that fire will seem to descend from heaven.[XVI]
...
When the Sibyl had predicted to the Romans these things and many other things to come, and by which signs the Lord would come for the sake of judging, she thundered, saying by way of prophecy:
…
Then shall be weeping and wailing, yea, and gnashing of teeth;
Eclipsed is the sun, and silenced the stars in their chorus. [XIX, XVII]
Over and gone is the splendor of moonlight, [XVIII] melted the heaven,
Uplifted by Him are the valleys, and cast down the mountains.
...
Sounding the archangel's trumpet shall peal down from heaven, [XX]
Over the wicked who groan in their guilt and their manifold sorrows.
...
Then the Lord will judge according to the work of each one [XX] and the impious will go to the hell of eternal fire and the just will receive the reward of eternal life. And there will be a new heaven and a new earth [XXI] and both will remain in perpetuity, and the sea will no longer exist and the Lord will rule with his saints and these same ones will rule with him forever and ever. Amen.

Ross G Caldwell

Hi Marco,

Thanks for the images!

DoctorArcanus said:
9th century illumination

Here is a better one from Ms. 99 of the Library of Valenciennes itself -
http://bibliotheque.valenciennes.fr...n-ligne/manuscrits-a-feuilleter-en-ligne.html
(page 40 of the reader, folio 18 of the text)
http://bibliotheque.valenciennes.fr...anuscrits/apocalypse_figuree/MS99/index.html#
(first text)

(this is as big as I can make it)

The text is Apocalypse 9:1. I wouldn't consider a true cognate in meaning for the trump Fuoco, Saetta, Maison Dieu or Tower, since in the Tarot the tower is being struck by lighting or fire from heaven, while in this part of the Apocalypse the "tower" is a shaft to the Abyss, pictured with a lid, which the Angle has opened, and fire and smoke are coming up out of it.

Cartomancer

DoctorArcanus said:
Hello Cartomancer, I don't think there are many people claiming that most tarot images were not common in XV century Europe. Most of those images were almost ubiquitous (e.g. the three virtues, the Emperor, the Pope, the Sun, the Moon). A few of the images clearly have a religious meaning (e.g. the Devil, Judgement). Such images were more common in religious works of art than in astrological illustrations....

Hello DoctorArcanus, Thanks for pointing out that most tarot images were common in XV century Europe. By "astrological illustrations" are you referring to the star charts of the ancients? I guess ancient star maps may be considered astronomical and astrological. There are examples in ancient star maps that show the symbols of the Major Arcana cards.

Here is a link to the Hermit card as Saint Benedict in a Christian star map in the stars of Ophicuchus:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/4-25-x-2-no-9-Ophiuchus-Benedict-Hermit-371710504

Here is a link to the Pope card in a Christian star map as Pope Sylvester in the stars of Bootes:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/4-25-x-2-no-5-Pope-371447165

Here is a link to the Fool card in the stars of Bootes based on ancient star maps:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/0-FOOL-Knight-CROP-267x380px-Copyright-Grayscale-370434266

DoctorArcanus said:
These associations are not compatible with what we know of how the cards were interpreted at the time of their invention. The names of the cards in most cases provide a clear hint of the meaning attributed to them. So, the Devil represents the Devil, not the constellation of Capricorn: both the Capricorn and the Devil have horns, but, if one searches for XV century images of the Capricorn and the Devil, it is easy to see that the card represents the Devil. Both Death (in a few illustrations) and Sagittarius (by definition) have a bow, but once again it is not possible to misinterpret an image of Death, because the Sagittarius was not represented as a skeleton or a corpse.

I suggest that my constellational associations are still compatible with meanings attributed to the Tarot cards. The names of the Major Arcana cards do provide a clue about what constellations they represent. For instance, Sagittarius was associated with the gates of Mem, which is the doorway to death. The other gate of Mem is in Cancer. Both Cancer and Sagittarius are on the zodiac and in the Milky Way. Those intersections are the gates of birth and death.

In regard to the Devil card and the constellation Capricorn: The constellation Capricorn was sometimes pictured as a monster when the Tarot was created.

DoctorArcanus said:
Also, consider that during the Renaissance an expanded tarot deck was created in Florence (the “minchiate”). In that deck, the standard trumps coexist with the twelve constellations of the zodiac, and the two sets of images created no confusion in players, just because it was not possible to confuse the Capricorn and the Devil, the Death and Saggitarius and so on. http://www.tarot.org.il/Minchiate/Trumps.html

I do NOT think that the Tarot is based on the 12 constellations of the zodiac, although some of those constellations are pictured in the Tarot. I don't want to confuse the list I present with the "Minchiate" deck that has 12 zodiac constellations.

DoctorArcanus said:
The higher trumps (XV-XXI) represent the end of times, as described in the Book of Revelation and in similar eschatological texts. Illustrations of the Book of Revelation provide good examples of the trumps of this section, including one of the less common images: the Tower.

I do not believe that the higher trumps (XV-XXI) represent the end of times, as described in the Book of Revelation. There may be similar images, but there is little evidence that the higher trumps (XV-XXI) represent the end of times, except for the Judgement (Judgment) card, in my opinion. The Tower card is not a scene from the Bible, it is a scene in the sky of Serpens Caput (Ophiuchus) as the Tower section and the crown as Corona Borealis. The figures falling from the Tower are Bootes and Hercules.

DoctorArcanus said:
As an example of the texts that originated this iconographic tradition, here is an excerpt from a medieval prophecy:

This looks like an interesting prophecy, but I don't see how it explains the origins of the Tarot.

The symbols of the Tarot are explained if the Major Arcana Tarot cards are based on constellations.

Huck

Cartomancer said:
Here is a link to the Hermit card as Saint Benedict in a Christian star map in the stars of Ophicuchus:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/4-25-x-2-no-9-Ophiuchus-Benedict-Hermit-371710504

Here is a link to the Pope card in a Christian star map as Pope Sylvester in the stars of Bootes:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/4-25-x-2-no-5-Pope-371447165

Here is a link to the Fool card in the stars of Bootes based on ancient star maps:
http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/0-FOOL-Knight-CROP-267x380px-Copyright-Grayscale-370434266

hi Cartomancer,

For two of your three pictures you've as author ...

"Author: Julius Schiller (c. 1580 – 1627)
From the star atlas Coelum Stellatum Christianum 1627 by Julius Schiller with help from Johann Bayer."

... and the 3rd picture is even from 1978.

Pictures of some possible relevance for the origin of Tarot need to be a little bit older than 1627 or 1978.

Of some more interest might be ...
http://archive.org/details/OEXV540_P3
... the "Poeticon astronomicon" of Hyginus in 1482, though even this should be "too young" for your approach.
However, it's difficult to find a star picture catalog, which is older. Generally the Hyginus edition of 1482 is seen as the start of the following star picture fashion to which also the Julius Schiller edition belongs.
The catalog is naturally older, going back to Ptolemy, Hipparchos and others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Julius_Hyginus
Hyginus lived 64 BC – AD 17, his stars list is said to have been compiled a little bit later.

DoctorArcanus

Ross G Caldwell said:
Hi Marco,

Thanks for the images!

Here is a better one from Ms. 99 of the Library of Valenciennes itself -
http://bibliotheque.valenciennes.fr...n-ligne/manuscrits-a-feuilleter-en-ligne.html
(page 40 of the reader, folio 18 of the text)
http://bibliotheque.valenciennes.fr...anuscrits/apocalypse_figuree/MS99/index.html#
(first text)

(this is as big as I can make it)

The text is Apocalypse 9:1. I wouldn't consider a true cognate in meaning for the trump Fuoco, Saetta, Maison Dieu or Tower, since in the Tarot the tower is being struck by lighting or fire from heaven, while in this part of the Apocalypse the "tower" is a shaft to the Abyss, pictured with a lid, which the Angle has opened, and fire and smoke are coming up out of it.

Hello Ross,
thank you very much for the better images and for clarifying the meaning of this illumination!

I guess that other illustrations from the Book of Revelation are more relevant:

http://raebear.net/bibleart/displayimage.php?album=15&pos=3
http://raebear.net/bibleart/displayimage.php?album=14&pos=6

DoctorArcanus

Huck said:
hi Cartomancer,

For two of your three pictures you've as author ...

"Author: Julius Schiller (c. 1580 – 1627)
From the star atlas Coelum Stellatum Christianum 1627 by Julius Schiller with help from Johann Bayer."

... and the 3rd picture is even from 1978.

Pictures of some possible relevance for the origin of Tarot need to be a little bit older than 1627 or 1978.

Hello Huck and Cartomancer,
thank you for posting this information. I don't remember seeing this XVII century Christianization of the constellations before. Quite an interesting work!

Here is a list of illustrations:
http://www.lindahall.org/services/digital/ebooks/schiller/thumbs.shtml

The Frontispice links each of the seven planets with a biblical character (see here):

Moon - Mary
Saturn - Adam ?
Jupiter - Moses
Sun - Christ
Mercury - EIijah ?
Mars _ Joshua ?
Venus - John the Baptist

The association Moon - Mary is common in Christian art and derives from the Book of Revelation (12,1):

"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars"

Huck

There have been many attempts over the centuries and Kunkle’s was merely the latest in a series of pseudo-zodiacs. The most ambitious was probably Julius Schiller. In 1627, Julius Schiller published his Coelum Stellatum Christianum—a series of star maps that recast the heavens with Christian figures instead of pagan ones. The planets, zodiac signs, and constellations were all recast as famous figures from the Bible so that Jesus replaced the Sun, St. Peter replaced the zodiac sign of Aries, St. Mary Magdalene replaced Cassiopeia etc. It was a spectacular display of Counter Reformation propaganda. Unfortunately the Coelum Stellatum Christianum was published at the height of the Protestant Reformation, so it never really caught on. Nevertheless it’s clear that a lot of thought went into this which makes the Schiller’s Coelum Stellatum Christianum an intriguing footnote in the history of Astrology.

http://www.rulingplanets.com/node/9724

....

... "Forgery of History" in great style, the pagan version was turned to become Christian.

This overview is possibly easier to handle.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Coelum_Stellatum_Christianum

***************

Two other perspectives of the work:

Both from: http://www.atlascoelestis.com/epi schiller cellario.htm

Cartomancer

Julius Hyginus star maps as Tarot images?

Huck said:
hi Cartomancer,

For two of your three pictures you've as author ...

"Author: Julius Schiller (c. 1580 – 1627)
From the star atlas Coelum Stellatum Christianum 1627 by Julius Schiller with help from Johann Bayer."

... and the 3rd picture is even from 1978.

Pictures of some possible relevance for the origin of Tarot need to be a little bit older than 1627 or 1978.

Of some more interest might be ...
http://archive.org/details/OEXV540_P3
... the "Poeticon astronomicon" of Hyginus in 1482, though even this should be "too young" for your approach.
However, it's difficult to find a star picture catalog, which is older. Generally the Hyginus edition of 1482 is seen as the start of the following star picture fashion to which also the Julius Schiller edition belongs.
The catalog is naturally older, going back to Ptolemy, Hipparchos and others.

Hi Huck,
Yes, Julius Schiller's star atlas is used for the Hierophant and Hermit links that were provided as a mock up for artists on a different thread here. The 1978 Fool was by Ellery Knight and I was the art director.

Thanks for the link to the Julius Hyginus star maps. The Julius Hyginus star map is a bit young, as you say, but are there any older European star maps available? Are there any copies of star maps from Ptolemy or Hipparchos? Will we need to rely on non-European sources for star maps used at the time the Tarot was created?

I believe that there must be other star maps that are earlier, but are there pictorial copies available? I say that because these pictures I have made of the drawings of Julius Hyginus are not complete and do not quite dipict the Tarot cards I have assigned the constellations to. Another style of art is suggested. A better fit is needed. Possibly more Ptolemic. Does anyone know of any actual pictorial examples of star maps earlier than Julius Hyginus?

Anyway, here is a study of the Julius Hyginus star maps as Tarot:

The constellation Auriga by Julius Hyginus as the CHARIOT card in the Tarot.

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/AURIGA-Hyginus-CHARIOT-388609989
------------------------------

The constellation Bootes by Julius Hyginus as the FOOL card in the Tarot.

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/BOOTES-Hyginus-FOOL-388609882
------------------------------

The constellation Capricorn by Julius Hyginus as the DEATH card in the Tarot.

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CAPRICORN-Hyginus-DEVIL-388609743
------------------------------

The constellation Cassiopeia by Julius Hyginus as the EMPRESS card in the Tarot.

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CASSIOPEIA-Hyginus-EMPRESS-388609623
------------------------------

The constellation Cepheus by Julius Hyginus as the EMPEROR card in the Tarot.

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/CEPHEUS-Hyginus-EMPEROR-388609530
------------------------------

The constellation Hercules by Julius Hyginus as the STRENGTH card in the Tarot.

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/HERCULES-Hyginus-STRENGTH-388609434
------------------------------

Luna by Julius Hyginus as the MOON card in the Tarot.

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/LUNA-Hyginus-MOON-388609332
------------------------------

The constellation Sagittarius by Julius Hyginus as the DEATH card in the Tarot.

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/SAGITARIUS-Hyginus-DEATH-388609225
------------------------------

Sol by Julius Hyginus as the SUN card in the Tarot.

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/SOL-Hyginus-SUN-388609030
------------------------------
The constellation Virgo by Julius Hyginus as the WORLD card in the Tarot.

http://piecework.deviantart.com/art/VIRGO-Hyginus-WORLD-388607430

-Cartomancer Lance Carter

Debra

I'm interested in your approach. I don't understand your attributions. For example, why would the Archer be Death? Why would the Virgin be the World?

The Tarot symbols origin

Cartomancer

DoctorArcanus

Ross G Caldwell

Cartomancer

Huck

DoctorArcanus

DoctorArcanus

Huck

Cartomancer

Debra